If an opportunity arises for you to chat with a person who jointly developed games that significantly influenced your role-playing game perception, you wouldn’t miss it. Amazingly, that was my experience at Digital Dragons 2025 in Krakow, where I had the privilege of meeting none other than Josh Sawyer, the iconic figure behind some of the RPGs that have left an indelible mark on me – and most likely you too – encompassing both contemporary and classic masterpieces. Below is my interview with Josh “legendary” Sawyer.
I’ve had discussions with the game designer about his strategies within the RPG genre, including past setbacks and triumphs, insights he’s gained, and the current state of the industry. Our conversations frequently revolved around games developed by Obsidian Entertainment, particularly Pentiment and Pillars of Eternity. Through these discussions, I have come to understand his ideas for Pillars of Eternity 3 (even though it’s not entirely a secret).
Hey fellow gamers! Inviting you all to join me on this thrilling journey, and I’ve got a little plea for some influential game developers out there. Hey Xbox and Microsoft, could you please shower Josh Sawyer with plenty of financial resources to create Path of Exile 3? Let the man work his enchanting magic!
Hubert Sosnowski asks Josh this question: Which aspect of creating role-playing games and games in general do you consider more significant – the storyline or the numerical and mechanical elements?
Josh Sawyer: While I have a deep affinity for numbers, I believe what truly draws people to our games is the narrative, specifically their own storyline. It’s not just about completing quests and storylines, but also having control over shaping the story, forming alliances, making betrayals, and other similar aspects. Consequently, it seems that the heart of Obsidian’s role-playing games lies in the storytelling. Of course, I still enjoy working with numbers, but if I had to choose one, it would undoubtedly be the story.
HS: So what goes first, when YOU design the game?
In my creative process, I initially sketch out a concept, a scene, and potentially a catalyst, along with some crucial and distinctive elements. As time progresses, the story tends to unfold naturally. For instance, in Pentiment, I had vivid mental pictures of pivotal moments, but the entire narrative wasn’t fully planned. I knew the game would have minimal mechanics, and the importance of choice and consequence would be significant. The idea of a character who is an artist but also universally educated came to me early on, and the rest developed organically.
In the initial stages of a project, I usually don’t have a fully fleshed-out story. Instead, I have a general idea about the starting point, some parts of the middle, and possibly the end. However, when it comes to specifics, I prefer to work them out gradually as we progress. I’ve found that this approach works better for me because when I try to plan every detail at the beginning, the story often changes, and there’s too much to handle. This method also seems to be more collaborative since everyone on the team feels involved in the process if we discuss a few key points together.
HS: Was it always your way?
In my experience, I found that mastering the storyline of a game isn’t something you can quickly grasp at the beginning of your career. Eager as I was to have everything meticulously planned out in intricate detail right from the start, I often fell short. Moreover, I noticed that I wasn’t effectively involving my team during this process. Lastly, I would end up discarding a lot and making numerous changes because the storyline didn’t fully align with the game’s content yet. The truth is, your narrative unfolds within the context of the game, and you can’t truly comprehend its potential scale until you grasp the extent of your project. Thus, trying to establish crucial elements before fully understanding the game itself is nearly impossible. Looking back, I realize that my initial approach wasn’t particularly effective. Over time, however, I believe I’ve gradually improved upon it.
AS: Irrespective of your particular method, you are among those individuals who, along with their teams, have significantly impacted the RPG genre. For a considerable period, many RPGs were isometric in nature, but the emphasis later moved towards action RPGs. Currently, we see diverse approaches such as Kingdom Come, Baldur’s Gate 3, Clair Obscur, Disco Elysium, and Pentiment. So, what direction might the genre take next? What does its future hold?
The variety of RPGs (Role-Playing Games) that can be created and become popular today is broader than ever before. Unfortunately, the game development industry is struggling currently, and there are numerous factors contributing to this. However, one issue developers often face is the sheer number of games available, making it difficult for a new game to gain attention. Nevertheless, I am convinced that in today’s market, we can see an increase in isometric games, indie-style games, retro games, smaller developer-made games similar to Elder Scrolls series, and more diverse types of games overall.
Afterward, we could enjoy some high-profile releases. We’re capable of handling projects like Avowed or Kingdom Come Deliverance 2 as well, which surprisingly released close to each other last week. Despite being first-person games, they exhibit distinct characteristics. I find it fascinating that we can produce a game with such positive reception and critical acclaim in one genre, while also creating unique RPGs that shine in different areas and offer a distinctive taste.
Despite having reservations about the gaming industry itself, I’m thrilled by the potential for individuals to craft games that resonate with audiences. As long as they can effectively allocate their resources to match the needs of their audience, they stand a chance at achieving success. To me, this is incredibly inspiring.
AS: Regarding the current scene, as a designer, what appeals to you most? Are you drawn towards creating a specific RPG or game style at present? Perhaps something more compact like Pentiment, or perhaps you’re inclined towards larger, mainstream projects? Or maybe there’s still a spark for an epic isometric game within you?
As a gamer reflecting on my journey, Pentiment marks the culmination of a long-cherished dream in my career. When I first entered the gaming industry, my heart yearned to craft a Fallout-style game. My ambition expanded to design an Advanced Dungeons & Dragons title, which I was fortunate enough to create, only to find myself engulfed in numerous iterations [laughs].
At Black Isle, it struck me that I wished to develop a historical game. It took me two decades, but with Pentiment now under my belt, I can proudly say that I’ve achieved all I set out to accomplish. My focus has shifted from creating a specific game at a particular moment. Instead, I find myself drawn towards the collective vision of my team. If there’s a truly compelling concept and a passionate group dedicated to it, I would gladly oversee the creation of an epic game.
The same crew might be working on mid-scale or strategic projects instead of large ones. Regardless of the scale, I’m all for creating games as long as I am passionate about their concept and can feel that energy from my team. If we aren’t collectively enthusiastic, it simply isn’t worth pursuing. It’s essentially about a compelling idea and an energized team.
In discussing excitement and feelings in a broader sense, I’ve observed distinct patterns in Obsidian games. They appear more thought-provoking and delve deeper into themes such as society, religion, and related subjects. Conversely, our current era seems to be dominated by emotions, with an emphasis on romances, betrayals, and the need for grandeur and drama. How challenging is it to create and design something that focuses on the opposite aspect, without diminishing the importance of emotions?
I’ve noticed a difference between Obsidian games and what’s popular now. They seem more intellectual with themes like society and religion, while today’s entertainment often revolves around big emotions like romance and betrayal. It can be tough to make something that focuses on the opposite but still respects emotions.
In simpler terms, when it comes to my work as a director or writer, I aim to represent various perspectives on complex issues, such as different groups, ideologies, and views on how society should function. This approach tends to result in a more contemplative piece that is not entirely devoid of emotion but leans towards intellectual exploration rather than intense emotions. I try to maintain this balance between intellectual and emotional concerns without overemphasizing one over the other.
For instance, consider a character within a group who carries significant emotional weight in the narrative compared to another character. This could significantly influence how players perceive this faction, even if it happens subconsciously. We aim to show various perspectives and aspects when crafting our stories. The companions we create are often optional, reflecting different opinions about the factions they represent. There’s a certain detachment that comes with them, as they can be liked or disliked, thus adding complexity to player interactions.
In creating Pentiment, I put forth a substantial effort to ensure both the emotional depth and intensity were maintained, as well as delving into various themes. This was somewhat of an experiment for me, as I hadn’t managed to integrate these elements as effectively in previous games I had worked on. Consequently, maintaining this balance was a key focus. However, it’s worth noting that there’s often a degree of detachment or disconnection between character experiences, narratives, and the concepts being addressed. This isn’t always the case, but it seems to be a common pattern.
HS: Alright then, it seems like Pentiment was the game that found a good balance among various aspects. I think this is accurate because those who played were deeply invested in The Pentiment. Just checking if my assumption is correct. From what I’ve noticed, I believe there was a change starting around Pillars of Eternity 1 and continuing into Pillars of Eternity 2. In the first game, it felt like ideas were more important and this was evident in Deadfire, where you focused significantly on emotions, relationships, and such. The concepts were still there, with the main story being heavily conceptual and religious, but for me as a player, it was one of the first games from modern Obsidian (possibly excluding Neverwinter Nights 2) to be so straightforward about emotions. Does this sound right, or is it just my perspective?
In simpler terms, it seems like you’re on the right track. One key difference could be that our factions were more consistently present in this game, and we connected companions to these factions more strongly. For instance, Serafen is linked to the Principi, Maia with the Royal Dead Fire Company, and so forth. This created a stronger emotional bond among them. Additionally, there were religious themes and colonial issues that, while logical, were also deeply emotional. The characters have strong feelings about these topics. I believe there might have been a stronger connection between the ideas, the characters, and how their stories unfolded in this game.
User: I keep returning to the topic of Pillars of Eternity, as it appears significant in Obsidian’s evolution. I’ve read your Digital Dragons Postmortem, but from a retrospective angle, what were your fondest aspects of PoE 2, and what elements didn’t resonate as strongly for you? I ask this from the vantage point of someone who appreciated the Deadfire expansion highly.
User: Why do I find myself often discussing Pillars of Eternity? It was a key part of Obsidian’s journey. Reading your Digital Dragons Postmortem, what did you enjoy most about PoE 2, and what didn’t quite hit the mark for you? I’m coming from the viewpoint of someone who really liked Deadfire.
In reflection, I am still in awe of the exceptional art presented within the game. Kudos to Kaz Aruga, Sean Dunny, and the entire art team for their outstanding work. Regrettably, they had to put in long hours towards the heart of the game’s development to accomplish that level of quality, but their efforts have resulted in something truly unique. While some may criticize me for saying this, I believe it boasts the finest 2D isometric visuals ever seen. Truly remarkable – and I must emphasize that I cannot claim any credit for such brilliance; it’s all thanks to the talented team behind it [laughs].
I’m truly content with the manner we represented the themes we delved into, particularly those concerning colonialism. It could be debated that perhaps we included one faction too many, but I believe this was essential because in our world, multiple colonial powers often contend over a native culture. Overall, I’m quite pleased with how it was executed, even though it didn’t blend seamlessly with the other narratives.
I appreciate the points raised against the critical path, and I believe they are valid. However, I stand behind the exceptional work done by our team on this project. The writers deserve pride in their accomplishments, as they significantly improved the AI mechanics for enemies, which later served as the trigger-conditional system for players. They also fine-tuned the multi-classing system, a feature that continues to spark discussions among gamers. It’s important to note that this success is a result of teamwork, and I’m thrilled to see people still discussing class and build strategies, such as those demonstrated by Mortismall Gaming in their Ultimate completion. This is truly exciting!
HS: It’s crazy, I saw that – and I love his channel!.
JS: [Nods and smiles]. I’m really pleased with the final mechanical aspect. You know, if we ever get another chance… Well, I’ve mentioned this before, but some people weren’t too happy about it. However, I believe that if we were to create a 3D game in the future, we could address one of the issues that currently exists. Since it is an isometric view, there’s no sense of height and the environment isn’t as dynamic. Compared to games like BG3, you can see how important this aspect is. At some point, I’d love to develop a game that combines the Deadfire mechanics with more environmental features, elevation hazards, and dynamic terrain elements. That could be really exciting!
Hey there! I can’t help but wonder if you’ve just hinted at the top-secret pitch for Pillars of Eternity 3? It might still be under wraps, but let me tell you, as a dedicated fan, I’d give up quite a few contemporary games from various studios to get my hands on that very game.
In simpler terms, our team excelled in Deadfire project, for multiple reasons. I propose the idea of a third game, featuring an isometric 3D environment similar to Baldur’s Gate 3. I believe this would be a great fit and incredibly exciting. This design choice would make art production easier for us and result in a more dynamic gameplay experience. I’ve suggested this concept before, so let’s hope everyone remains amenable [laughs]. There’s plenty of innovative ideas we could explore with it.
Hope everything goes well! Incidentally, I really appreciate one particular feature in Path of Exile 2 – the housing-shipping system. Despite having a bit of trouble with the combat mechanics, I found the rest to be outstanding. The living quarters, vehicle, hub, and even the economic aspects were all seamlessly integrated. It was a clever solution for balancing the economies in RPGs, as it ensured that players always had to spend money to keep things fair. I’m curious if this feature will appear in any future games you develop, given that more recent Obsidian titles like The Outer Worlds have adopted simpler versions of it…
Instead of other directors, we at our team considered the Normandy and thought: “What if we could personalize this ship more and make it costly? We enjoyed the concept of taking on NPCs and such. Ship battles didn’t turn out great, but many studio members liked the idea of a vessel that doubles as both a home and transportation between locations. Unlike a keep or stronghold, which you only visit when necessary, a ship feels more natural because it’s essential for traveling across oceans, space, or whatever. We believe BioWare did an excellent job with the Normandy in this regard. We built on that idea to expand its aspects that weren’t fully realized, but we still think it was a strong concept overall.
HS: Yes, it was. By the way, what’s your dream-like RPG or game in general to make?
In simpler terms,
“I’m unsure now. When people propose game ideas, I often respond positively because they might be great, but it depends on factors like the project’s scale, team size, and budget. Given these constraints, I don’t think I have a game like that in mind anymore. However, I enjoy creating RPGs in the style of Obsidian, games where your decisions matter, and you can truly immerse yourself in the role-playing experience, experiencing the repercussions of your actions.
I enjoy scenarios that involve tough decisions and bittersweet conclusions, stemming from the choices you make. Additionally, I thrive under some level of pressure or time constraints, which is unusual as Pentiment was the first game I worked on where there was minimal crunch. However, in most cases, I appreciate a dash of numerical challenges and a bit of statistical variance to tinker with. It’s simply my preferred style.
HS: So you’re just waiting for the proper moment, idea, or something like that?
Yes, at this stage in my professional journey, I find myself seeking the ideal fit for both me and the team at any given moment. This may change over time, and perhaps in a few years, I might be looking for something else. We’ll see how it unfolds, and I’m open to the adventure.
HS: So that’s a great example of living in the moment, something rare in the industry!
I truly appreciate your gratitude. To be honest, I feel quite fortunate to have spent 26 years in this industry and 20 of those years at the same studio. I’ve had my fair share of ups and downs, but overall, I consider myself to have a fulfilling career. Now, it’s all about finding the right team to collaborate with. For me, it’s less about the size or scale of the project, and more about ensuring that the team is happy, treated well, and we can create something enjoyable for others together. The specific details are not as important to me.
HS: OK. Thank you for a very positive and calm note for the end! I think we all needed that.
JS: Thank you as well!
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2025-06-13 16:04