Director on Marvel Movie About Depression

🚨 WARNING: The narrative that follows delves into crucial plot points, even the finale, of the ongoing Marvel Studios film “Thunderbolts” currently gracing the big screen.

In “Thunderbolts”, the final fight is unique compared to any other Marvel Studios movie in its 17 year span. During the film, whenever team members touch Bob Reynolds (Lewis Pullman), they are instantly transported into memories of their most profound regrets. For Yelena Belova (Florence Pugh), this means recalling the moment she tricked her friend to her death as part of the Red Room’s test. For John Walker (Wyatt Russell), it brings back memories of his actions during “The Falcon and the Winter Soldier” when he neglected his family following his disgrace. Similarly, Valentina Allegra de Fontaine (Julia Louis-Dreyfus) is taken back to the moment she saw her father’s murder as a child.

Towards the climax of the movie, the Thunderbolts uncover that Bob’s change into the omnipotent superhero Sentry and his counterpart, the Void, are responsible for the memories haunting him. The Void, which was swallowing New York City and its inhabitants in darkness, was also affecting everyone. When Yelena willingly ventured into that darkness, she battled her deepest recollections to locate Bob confined within a room symbolizing his shameful past stemming from his abusive childhood. The remaining Thunderbolts, including Bucky (Sebastian Stan), Ghost (Hannah John-Kamen) and Alexei (David Harbour), joined Yelena in the Void to assist Bob in overcoming his shame rooms, with the hope of freeing him from the Void completely.

In the end, they reach a memory in Bob’s mind – a Malaysian science lab where he participated in experiments meant to transform him into a superhero, the very same lab Yelena demolishes at the beginning of the movie. Facing the Void intensifies only its power; however, it is when Yelena and the Thunderbolts surround Bob, offering comfort by showing him he’s not alone, that he manages to break free from the Void, restoring peace in New York once more.

As a film enthusiast, I must commend the creative choices made by director Jake Schreier (“Paper Towns,” “Beef”) and cinematographer Andrew Droz Palermo (“The Green Knight,” “Moon Knight”) in this sequence. Their handheld, artisanal approach to filming brings an authentic, A24-esque feel reminiscent of masterpieces like “Everything Everywhere All At Once” and timeless indie gems such as “Being John Malkovich.

According to Schreier, Kevin Feige, the head of Marvel Studios, instructed them to make the scene unique and if possible, film it without the use of special effects. So, they decided to create a realistic depiction of what being trapped in a repetitive thought pattern or a ‘shame room’ might look like.

Schreier chatted with EbMaster about planning the “shame rooms”, both those included in the movie and those left out, as well as his personal motivations behind Bob’s character and the extent of his involvement in the post-credits sequence that foreshadows the team’s part in the 2026 film “Avengers: Doomsday”.

When did you shoot the end credit scene?

It was around a month ago when that shot was taken, and I wasn’t the one in charge of it. That’s the Russo brothers on the set of “Avengers: Doomsday.” I was fortunate enough to be there, which was really enjoyable, as I got to witness my friends scale up to such an impressive level.

Did you have a sense that Sam Wilson was going to be suing them for using the name “Avengers”?

I did get a glimpse at the drafts indeed. We all put effort into crafting that scene authentically, ensuring it reflected our characters accurately. However, remember, we’re introducing these characters to an entirely new environment and scale. Our aim was to let them adapt and perform naturally within this fresh context and broader scope. It was quite engaging to observe their direction in a different setting and on a larger scale than we had previously portrayed.

Which came first, having Sentry/the Void in your movie, or wanting to explore themes of loneliness and depression in a Marvel film?

Eric Pearson and Brian Chapek discovered the character of Sentry/The Void, which was inherent to his nature, as established by comic book writer Paul Jenkins. The character served as a metaphor for mental health issues, something we found intriguing and decided to further explore in our work on “Beef”. We were excited about the possibility of applying these concepts to a larger scale.

A lot of the discourse about how where things are in the world today revolves around a generation of young men who are desperately lost and alone and depressed. How much of that was on your mind as you were exploring those themes in this movie?

When Lewis took on the role, our collaboration and discussions about it led to moments that seemed deeply meaningful. It wasn’t initially our intention to address these issues specifically, but as we progressed, we found a surprising connection. We didn’t want to preach or cater to anything, instead striving for authenticity. To me, the character was modeled after a friend who has experienced similar struggles, with periods of intense joy and an underlying self-destructive tendency. The character needed to learn how to navigate this complex emotional state and accept himself in the process.

My intention isn’t to lecture or preach, but rather for everyone who identifies with the movie to feel a sense of understanding. It’s about discovering connections because misguided guidance, like what Val gives Bob, can steer someone towards a darker path. However, establishing a genuine connection offers a more solid escape route.

What was the process of designing the shame rooms and what would be inside of them?

In our exploration, we significantly expanded on an intricate concept. At first, it seemed impossible to outdo this character in a conventional manner, so we needed an internal resolution. The idea of venturing into the Void was proposed by Brian Chapek. With Kevin Feige encouraging us to create something unique and do it practically if possible, we found an engaging way to depict being trapped within a thought loop or a room of shame. As “Beef” creator Sonny Lee contributed multiple drafts and collaborated with Grace Yun, our production designer on both projects, the specific details of these rooms began to take shape. Screenwriter Joanna Calo then built upon this foundation, returning to the initial room where we first encounter Yelena in the movie, using it as a callback to emphasize that the deepest shame was believing you could be something greater than yourself. This misguided pursuit of heroism ultimately led to everything falling apart, teaching us the importance of accepting ourselves as we are.

We see Bob, Elena, Walker and Val’s shame rooms. Did you explore at all what Bucky or Ava or Alexei’s shame rooms would look like?

I deeply regretted not being able to visit Alexei’s private chamber, a place that seemed particularly intriguing. We had attempted, but the finale turned into an exploration through all their shame rooms instead, which could have been quite entertaining. However, Joanna strongly advocated for a climactic confrontation with a major antagonist before they left the Void. Given that this encounter might lead us to the heart of the Void, it felt more crucial to traverse Bob’s shame rooms, even though I was disappointed at not delving into every character’s backstory.

How far did you get into thinking about what that would look like?

We’ve made significant progress. We now have various concluding scenes for our film fully animated and storyboarded in multiple versions.

Can you tell me a little bit about what those would’ve been?

In simpler terms,

Alexei was sent to the gulag, it seems, after being imprisoned. I suspect Ghost’s story revolves around her experiences in the orphanage, and the feeling of being unwanted and invisible – seeing how others perceive you and not wanting to be noticed was a sad reality for her. We explored many different versions of Bucky. We often aimed to portray him in ways that were less conventional than expected. There are some clear-cut aspects of Bucky, but I think at one point, Joanna had written a scene about a shameful moment in Boy Scout camp. However, I’m not sure if that would have been the most suitable direction for the character. It’s great working with actors because they are deeply invested and caring about their characters, so they can let us know when something feels off or inappropriate to them.

How did you work the actors on sorting through what their shame rooms mean for them and how they understand what they’re seeing?

When working with on-set visual effects such as head turn transitions and match cuts, actors may question if the approach is sufficient, thinking, “Is this it?” However, my confidence remains unshaken, believing it will work out effectively. I admire Joanna’s writing for Walker, as it resonates with a poignant scene from “The Falcon and The Winter Soldier” series without explicitly revisiting the moment itself. Instead, it invites us to explore the impact of such scenes on our emotions, particularly when observing a character in an intimate, relatable domestic setting. This setting might intensify the emotional impact even further.

For a long time, this movie wasn’t supposed to come out at the beginning of May. What was your reaction when you realized this movie is now launching the summer season, and it’s a blockbuster about shame and depression and loneliness?

[Chuckles] Well, I’m simply here to create this film. Kevin made it clear from the start, “Make it unique,” so I never felt like I was straying too far. From the beginning, I didn’t want this to be an oddball movie. We collaborated on this project with the studio team who have all contributed to those fantastic movies we love. Our aim was to deliver a film that delivers all the action, explosions, and humor you’d expect from a Marvel summer blockbuster. Of course, there’s also a deeper emotional side to it, but when you reach the post-credit scene, even though the journey may have been unexpected, it honors the legacy of these films. I hope we managed to achieve that goal.

This interview has been edited and condensed.

2025-05-03 20:49