As a fan of storytelling, I can appreciate the intricacies and thoughtfulness that Jac Schaeffer brings to her work. Her experiences in the Marvel Universe have undoubtedly shaped her creative process, allowing her to craft compelling narratives filled with depth and emotion.
ATTENTION: SPOILERS AHEAD: Here’s a summary of the Marvel Studios limited series “Agatha All Along,” which is now available to stream on Disney+. This information may reveal significant plot points. Proceed with caution if you wish to avoid spoilers.
Upon logging into Zoom approximately 18 hours following the premiere of her show “Agatha All Along” on Disney+, Jac Schaeffer appears both relaxed and somewhat uneasy.
For approximately an hour now, the showrunner has been expressing that they’ve felt quite unsteady,” they say with a chuckle. “We’ve released a significant amount of material – many memorable scenes.
Schaeffer isn’t overstating things. The episodes, named “Follow Me My Friend / To Glory at the End” and “Maiden Mother Crone,” are filled with unexpected plot twists and disclosures that drastically alter the narrative of Agatha Harkness (Kathryn Hahn), Billy Maximoff (Joe Locke) and their group of female travelers as they journey along the legendary Witches’ Road. To begin with, it’s revealed that the Witches’ Road wasn’t actually a real place – until Billy unwittingly conjured it into existence. Additionally, “The Ballad of the Witches’ Road,” which was believed to detail the challenges of the road, was actually penned by Agatha’s son Nicholas “Nicky” Scratch (Abel Lysenko) as a means to keep themselves entertained during their walk along an old New England country road in the 1750s.
Just like in Schaeffer’s previous series “WandaVision,” the magical events in “Agatha All Along” are deeply tied to the characters’ emotional journeys: Billy constructs the road as a means to reunite with his long-lost brother Tommy; following the night that Lady Death (Aubrey Plaza, also known as Rio Vidal) whisked Nicky away to the afterlife, Agatha uses the “Ballad” to manipulate unsuspecting witches into draining their powers — all while seeking a way to stay connected with her son.
Schaeffer’s passion for crafting such stories is evident, along with her delight at last discussing them without fear of spoilers in a comprehensive interview with EbMaster. During this chat, Schaeffer revealed the origins of these storylines, her initial hesitation about Billy being the one to pave the road, the history behind Agatha and Rio’s romantic connection, the mystery surrounding Nicky’s parentage, why Tommy is absent from the series, what she wishes could have been included but wasn’t, and an unused post-credits scene she scripted for “WandaVision”.
When did you decide that everything that we had been watching was in essence a magic trick, like that the “Ballad” meant nothing and that the road wasn’t real until Billy made it real?
Approximately a month into our brainstorming sessions in the writers’ room, we were deeply engrossed in designing the road, pouring care and creativity into its development. A unique concept emerged that the trees lining the road represented witches who had perished there. We approached this notion with great seriousness. Then, an idea struck me: perhaps Billy was the one who built the road, and Agatha controlled him to do so. Remarkably, our executive producer, Mary Livanos, simultaneously conceived of Billy constructing the road.
Agatha was singing the “Ballad” on the path with Nicky, and this seemed to fit the puzzle together. Billy constructed the road, and it turned out that Agatha did indeed walk a natural path with her son. The “Ballad,” instead of being a deception, was actually composed by him. Essentially, Agatha manipulated the “Ballad” into a ruse.
I’m absolutely captivated by “The Usual Suspects,” and the revelation that Agatha is Keyser Söze, coupled with Billy’s moment akin to Kobayashi where everything falls into place, has been thrilling for me. Throughout the series, I’ve found myself torn about Billy being the creator of this road due to its similarities to “WandaVision.” Yet, the truth behind Nicky and his “Ballad” has always proved too compelling to resist. It’s simply impossible to look away.
Fans have been loving the parallel of Wanda creating the world of “WandaVision” and Billy creating the world of the Witches’ Road — why were you resistant to it?
I’ve been fortunate to collaborate with these MCU characters, who possess abilities so immense they could shatter storylines if not handled carefully. If Wanda and Billy have unlimited power, the entire plot can crumble. That seems to be the apprehension. However, I believe we approached it thoughtfully and courageously. We determined that every item in his room was connected to the road, and hinting at this throughout the series, especially during the end credits, was our way of revealing this from the start. In fact, if you look closely at the “Agnes of Westview” credits, there are brief glimpses of the witches that Agatha kills, subtly suggesting the connections from the very beginning. The storylines may not seem coherent until the end, but we’re laying all the pieces out for you upfront.
Furthermore, I couldn’t help but yearn for a return to the magical realm of “WandaVision,” and this approach seemed incredibly genuine. The character, William Kaplan/Billy Maximoff, appears to be deeply fascinated by magic, witches, and horror, which forms the basis of the show, mirroring Wanda’s fixation on sitcoms. This decision ultimately felt fitting.
I found the motivations behind what both Wanda and Billy do with their magic were also deeply seated in their connection to family. Creating entire worlds doesn’t feel like a flight of fancy.
In my opinion, Wanda’s sitcom seems to have been crafted from sorrow and necessity, while Billy appears to have created much of his work out of affection for the witch community – a heartwarming touch. Although “Agatha All Along” presents a darker narrative with horror undertones, it carries an infectious energy, curiosity, and delight that I believe stems from its creator’s psyche.
So how did you work out with Kathryn Hahn about how much to let on that Agatha, as we learn, figures it all out pretty much right away?
We expressed hope that she was Nicky while playing with her, as there were times when she subconsciously allowed herself to imagine it was her son. However, Rio would bring her back from these brief illusions of reality.
It was less about her performance than what we chose to use in post. We captured more things hinting at the truth than we actually have in the show. She gave degrees. In Episode 2, when they finally make it to the road, I think I did three or four takes of that single shot pulling Agatha out of the strangler fig tree onto the road. I think I did one where she barely looks at Billy and then I did one where she really gives him the side eye. Kathryn fully understood that we needed to get variations in order to calibrate it in post. In our early cuts, there wasn’t enough. There were some Marvel notes about tipping our hand a little bit more, so that the breadcrumbs were there. I agree with that. I think it’s calibrated well in our final cuts.
Still, when you first reveal Billy’s bedroom in Episode 6, that isn’t so much a bed crumb as a whole loaf of bread. Were you worried people would figure it out at that point?
We kept the camera off of the leaves. I thought we weren’t going to see the green witch figurine, but you do post on a tiny little screen, and I didn’t realize it actually is right there in the back. So it revealed a little bit more than I was anticipating, having stared at it so long. But I don’t know, I think it actually worked out that people were starting to piece it together. You need certain reveals to either consciously or subconsciously feel inevitable for the audience in order to earn the ones that are completely off the spine, and aren’t predictable. Like, you can’t predict the Nicky stuff. You can’t just launch an audience into a reveal that has no basis in what’s come before.
It seems reasonable that folks came up with those theories since all the suggestions I encountered were about “Billy creating a version of the road.” The key point here is that nobody was suggesting that the road doesn’t actually exist; rather, it was the revelation about Billy’s role in its creation.
There are already people on social media noticing the parallels between the walk Wanda does in her neighborhood at the end of “WandaVision” with a very similar walk Billy makes at the end of Episode 8. Was that intentional?
It’s quite deliberate. Mary Livanos is carefully considering the broader picture of this family and the symbolism in her art, while Wanda and Billy are grappling with a complicated relationship that extends beyond just their personal lives, and this complexity is a significant aspect of the Maximoff narrative.
Who came up with the idea that Agatha is the one who was responsible for binding Jennifer (Sasheer Zamata)?
I can’t recall who originally thought of it, but I sure wish I could. However, we all adored the idea since Agatha carries an air of irreverence, suggesting that no one is inviolable and she’s more than happy to engage in fellow witches’ misdeeds. It felt incredibly fitting. Yet, witnessing Agatha soften under Jen’s influence ranks among my favorite scenes.
Having a Black woman tell a white woman, “You hold nothing,” over and over again, that was a powerful moment. How did that come together?
Initially, while creating the character of Jen and all other characters, we discussed racial aspects, but we didn’t definitively decide on their ethnicities. Our casting director, Sarah Finn, auditioned numerous actors for the roles.
Upon bringing on board Sasheer, her passion for research was evident. In her stand-up act, she had already developed a segment revolving around witches, inspired by her own research. The concept of Jen as a root worker and midwife appealed to us, and we paired Sasheer with an academic expert we found to delve deeper into the topic. This sparked a series of developments. I am deeply appreciative for the honesty she infused in this creative journey.
Once you did cast the roles, did you have a conversation with Sasheer or the writers about the racial dynamics in that scene?
Indeed, it turned out to be even more impactful than we anticipated. We had expected Jen to reach that trial since Agatha had bound her, knowing she would find a way to free herself. However, when Sasheer stood firm and survived the situation, the event took on greater significance. It wasn’t a discussion centered around race, rather it was about Jen and the implications this instance holds for her personal journey.
Shifting gears to Rio, did you have more of the backstories worked out of what her relationship with Agatha was like?
We did. We talked a lot about their meet cute. We had these really pretty visuals of Agatha killing people and then seeing Rio across the bodies, like that line, “They met over corpses.” I mean, I saw it in my mind. It was really beautiful and also quite funny. And then the room took it in a direction that then they lived together in a cottage, and we talked at length about it, to the point of, “Is Rio Nicky’s father?” We went down those paths, and they were very gratifying to explore. I think there’s more story there, but we were already biting off so much with the Nicky sequence that was vital to this story, that it didn’t feel like we could flash all the way back to Rio and Agatha before Nicky and then get into Nicky. It sort of threatened to tip the boat over, but I think all those discussions informed what you do see of their relationship.
So who is Nicky’s father?
That’s a story for another day, but ultimately for me, it’s irrelevant in this story.
Do you know who it is?
The fact remains that while I might possess the solution, it’s not something discussed within the scope of this topic. Therefore, it could make an interesting tale for another occasion, one which may be beyond my immediate influence.
You do have Agatha saying “I made you from scratch” to Nicky right after he’s born, which could mean so many things, like he was conjured or he’s an immaculate conception. Where did that line come from?
The line was my creation, and my co-writer Laura Donney adored it so deeply that she commented, “It seems like something I could have written,” but she phrased it gracefully as, “it’s a product of our collaborative effort.” It’s my most cherished line from the series, as I appreciate the enigmatic quality of it. I embrace the various interpretations it invites.
As a cinephile, I find it compelling how Agatha, despite being primarily associated with death and devastation, managed to create something entirely on her own. Unlike Billy and Wanda who wield chaos magic, she doesn’t possess such abilities. This creation of hers is unique because it wasn’t born out of deception or manipulation. Instead, there’s a sense of purity and beauty in her act of creation that resonates deeply.
When Agatha chooses to kiss Rio and end her own life after Billy telepathically asks her about Nicky — I interpreted that as her realizing she could save Billy from Death in a way she never could with Nicky. Am I barking up the right tree there?
Absolutely. Let me put it this way: The final stages of these projects are incredibly challenging due to the immense responsibility associated with the Marvel Universe. There’s a high level of fan expectation, a deep sense of familiarity, and the need to navigate the tropes of other pop culture elements while also delving into the unique characteristics of the MCU. We’re approaching a crucial juncture, where many anticipate a redemption arc for Agatha, perhaps ending with her self-sacrifice. However, I wanted to present this in a way that is quintessentially Marvel, yet distinct, by opting for a tender kiss instead of the usual explosion.
The spontaneous instance of mental communication between the two characters wasn’t planned originally; instead, we invented it on set. It was Megan McDonald who came up with this idea, and we weren’t certain about what he would say. In post-production, it turned out to be a last-minute decision for him to ask, “Is this how Nicky died?” I believe that Billy is using Agatha in this scene, having been used by her earlier. Despite being truthful, his actions can be seen as cunning and devious, even though they’re not born out of any malicious intentions within him.
How did the idea of Agatha becoming a ghost come into the show?
From the outset of creating the series, we had planned that her character would become a ghost. This was consistently our intention throughout the development process. She doesn’t appear frequently in the comics and when she does, she often appears as a ghost. So it felt like a natural progression to say, “This is where we’re headed.” I believe that her strongest aspect is her mentoring role. That’s what she’s designed for. Therefore, her role as a spiritual guide for Billy seemed like a fitting end to this phase of her story, while also setting the stage for new adventures.
Was Tommy ever going to appear on the show?
We had a discussion about it. With the conclusion of Marvel shows approaching, there’s a sense of uncertainty about what comes next, right? Do we already have the plan in place? Have we finalized the casting yet? It can get quite complex, you know. So, this is as much of Tommy as we could fit into the scope of this series.
Just so I’m clear on this, it seemed like what happens is that Agatha guides Billy into finding a body for Tommy to inhabit in that moment.
That’s right.
In the comics, Tommy is reincarnated into somebody who has a very difficult life. How did you arrive who the kid Tommy inhabits would be and that he would die in a swimming prank gone bad?
We wanted to hint at, “This is kind of a rush job, that he finds the closest best body in this moment, and it’s not a good place.” That sequence was written by Peter Cameron. There’s a lot of story economy in setting up the promise of Tommy, who we will hopefully see in a later property. We had to keep it simple. We know that he needs to be about Billy’s age, and it needs to be a death of a young person that is tragic, and we want it to be visual. We thought the drowning in the water would be cinematic, but also afford us the opportunity to obscure him.
Like with the finale of “WandaVision,” some fans expected Mephisto would appear in the final episode. Did you ever contemplate doing that?
Personally speaking, Mephisto has never captivated me in the world of cinema. Initially, there was a draft that hinted at his potential villain role, yet it never truly resonated with me. Moreover, within the Marvel Cinematic Universe, the narrative structure didn’t align perfectly for our series to accommodate him.
You’ve mentioned future projects — have you talked at all with Marvel about the upcoming Vision show that Terry Matalas is showrunning about how “Agatha All Along” ends?
As for my interaction with the topic at hand, I must confess I haven’t had any personal discussions about it. Therefore, I’m not aware of its current status. However, I genuinely hope it fares well, and I eagerly anticipate its progress. To clarify, I have great admiration for Paul Bettany, and he excels as Vision, which only increases my excitement.
Some fans have referred to that show as the conclusion of a trilogy about the Maximoff family. Do you know if that’s the intention?
I don’t actually know if that is the plan.
Let’s turn to Nicholas Scratch. His story in the comics is radically different. How did you arrive at what happens to him in your show?
I was really interested in the idea of Agatha’s source pain being something very human, very intimate, and very private. We talked a lot about Agatha, the performer and the liar, and I was very interested in peeling back all of the layers, and then just having the story be, Agatha had a son who did not have power, she loved him and he died.
The sadness I feel is overwhelming, it’s as if someone has stolen my breath.
Was there anything about Nicky’s story that didn’t make the final episode?
In our production, we kept Agatha consistently facing the camera during the series, but eventually decided to remove most of those instances. The reasoning behind this was to ensure that only Nicky remained unseen by Billy, and even Rio is not privy to the full extent of it. This was a unique moment for Agatha where she wasn’t performing for the audience, but instead, they were privy to her secret. In the final episode (Episode 9), when Agatha says, “The ‘Ballad’ didn’t mean anything, it never did,” Kathryn delivered a poignant moment by looking directly at the camera to suggest that she was lying; in reality, the “Ballad” held immense significance for her, though its depths were beyond Billy’s comprehension. We eliminated this scene because it didn’t align with the emotional climax of Agatha’s later declaration, “Because I just can’t face him.” However, I cannot help but feel a pang of regret over cutting it, as it portrays such a moving depiction of her denial; even then, she feigns indifference towards the “Ballad” – yet the “Ballad” represents her child.
It also seemed like that there was a parallel to the experience that a lot of parents have, where they know when their kid is born that their life expectancy, for whatever reason, is very short, but they don’t know how short. Was that intentional?
I believe that’s accurate. I have encountered individuals in my personal life who face similar situations. [Pause.] The Marvel Cinematic Universe is vast, and for this episode, I aimed to use its grandeur to bring it back to a relatable human scale. I wanted to challenge expectations and hopefully resonate with people through the authenticity of that approach.
So Kristen Anderson-Lopez and Robert Lopez, who wrote all of the versions the “Ballad,” had to have known everything about Nicky in advance, right?
Certainly, you’ve outlined a variety of versions of the song in question: “Mare of Easttown,” the Sacred Chant version, Lorna’s rendition by the cast, the authentic Lorna version, Nicky’s interpretation, sung both acapella and in the tavern, as well as Agatha’s time-travel version. As for Abel, our actor, we required a preliminary melody to establish that he was discovering it, even though it was specifically composed for us.
How many versions of the song did you have to go through to find the right balance — since this song has to serve a lot of different purposes at once?
We experimented with multiple variations of the lyrics and found them changing over time. I’m unsure about any adjustments made to the melody as I don’t fully grasp that aspect, but the words evolved. Additionally, our version included a more extensive sequence featuring Nicky, which provided context for each lyric, and we trimmed much of that down. This insight came from “WandaVision.” At times, it becomes clear that you’re simply acknowledging your own writing skills when you say, “Observe how everything fits together so perfectly.” It’s sometimes better to let the audience figure things out on their own.
In a scene from Nicky, he expresses his hunger. Afterward, she offers him a knife to kill a goat off-screen, which they later roast and eat. As they do this, she sings, “Tame your fears,” and when she presents the meat to him, he eats it as she says, “A door appears.” Though it was heartwarming and adorable, it felt excessive. In fact, it transformed into a symbolic act of submission. This scene is about the enchanting effect of music overpowering you and making everything seem understandable.
Basically every Marvel Studios project has a post-credits scene, but “Agatha All Along” did not. Why wasn’t there one?
That’s a Marvel decision. I know nothing more than that.
Did you have one in mind?
Absolutely, I composed several tags for this project, as it’s common practice in all Marvel productions. Tag writing is something I enjoy immensely, and I believe some of my most creative ideas come from these unrealized tags. If only I had a portfolio dedicated to them! They are such a joy to write because they encapsulate the essence of a scene without requiring full delivery. They truly are exceptional. However, there are numerous elements that influence their creation. Unfortunately, it was mentioned that we wouldn’t be using a tag for this series. Nonetheless, this doesn’t impact my commitment or creative direction for the show.
Is there one tag that wasn’t used that you were particularly proud of that you can tell me about?
Indeed, I’ll share an interesting detail with you since it’s been quite some time, and perhaps the timeframe has surpassed any legal restrictions. Originally, Doctor Strange was intended to make a cameo in the post-credits scene for “WandaVision.” The scenario involved Wanda sitting on the porch of that cabin, peacefully rocking back and forth. Remember how Doctor Strange can create those circular energy vortexes to transport people? Well, a circle began forming around Wanda, suggesting she was about to be teleported elsewhere. However, she stopped it, causing Doctor Strange to appear physically instead of just teleporting her away. I found this idea intriguing because it implied that Wanda had the power to control even Doctor Strange’s teleportation abilities. Unfortunately, another post-credits scene took its place in the final cut.
Speaking of Wanda, is there anything you can tell me about the status of a Wanda movie?
I know nothing of a Wanda movie, that’s what I can tell you.
You’ve also hinted that Wanda wasn’t going to appear on “Agatha All Along,” either.
No, not in the show, no. The discussion during the rollout is complicated. If I felt it served the watch [of the show] to say, “Wanda’s not in the show,” I would have just said that. But it’s my feeling that it then becomes the conversation. I’m not interested in stringing anybody along. If you look at my comments, they were pretty clear that she wasn’t going to show up. But the sort of hardlining it, I think, is no fun. People want to have their theories. I don’t want to spoil anybody’s party. I just want to gently curate it.
Do you know what’s next for you?
I don’t have something lined up right at this moment. I’m trying to figure that out.
Would you want to stay with Marvel, or are you thinking you’d like to go elsewhere?
I’m unsure about the future, but let me tell you, I adore the characters from these shows immensely, and even more importantly, I have great admiration for the actors and the creative team behind them. There’s a deep affection in my heart for this entire universe.
This interview has been edited and condensed.
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2024-11-01 19:21