As a huge fan of “Evil,” I can’t help but feel a sense of loss after reading this interview with Robert and Michelle King. Their creative brilliance has brought us some of the most engaging and thought-provoking television in recent years, and it’s heartbreaking to know that we won’t be getting any more episodes of “Evil.”
Warning: This conversation reveals plot points from “Fear of the End,” the final episode of “Evil,” currently available on Paramount+.
The creative duo Robert and Michelle King, often referred to as “the Kings,” who are behind the hit shows such as “Evil,” “The Good Wife,” and “The Good Fight,” want their devoted fans of “Evil” to understand how much they value their support. Fans have been creating compilation videos of the best moments from “Evil” in an attempt to persuade another streaming platform to continue airing the horror series following its cancellation, which was announced earlier this year. These videos seem to be primarily directed at Netflix, where “Evil” has been successful.
As a cinephile, I’ve got to say, “Evil” seems to have struck a chord with viewers in a truly powerful manner. In this era where the TV landscape is overflowing but quality content is still hard to come by, it feels like working in an empty void. So, when you see undeniable evidence that a show has made a significant impact, it’s almost magical, as if people are reacting exactly how I hoped they would.
At the same time as Paramount+ announced the cancellation of “Evil” in February, it was also revealed that Season 4 would receive an additional four episodes to conclude the series.
Despite no clear hero against “Evil” appearing, if given the chance to write an ending, the creators have made sure that the series will continue in some form. Over its four seasons, which started on CBS in September 2019 and later moved to Paramount+ (as announced in May 2021), the narrative of “Evil” has grown far beyond its initial weekly case format, unveiling a grand conspiracy involving demonic organizations known as the 60.
In their roles as investigators for the Catholic Church, examining suspected extraordinary occurrences, forensic psychologist Kristen Bouchard (Katja Herbers), Father David Acosta (Mike Colter), and scientist Ben Shakir (Aasif Mandvi) confronted the affluent Leland Townsend (Michael Emerson). He poses as a messenger of the shadowy group known as the 60, whose goal is to inflict misery and disaster upon humanity.
In the final episode of the series, the hints about Black Mass rituals and Kristen’s son Timothy being the Antichrist, which were revealed to be Kristen’s egg being secretly fertilized by Leland with his sperm to create an evil child, turned out to be red herrings masking a more sinister plan from the 1960s. (By Season 4, creating the Antichrist through in-vitro fertilization had become typical behavior for the “Evil” characters.) Towards the end of the episode, Ben remarks, “What’s the point of all these Satan worshipers if you can just meet online?”
They met online instead. After outsmarting the covert Vatican organization tasked with monitoring malevolent activities, known as “The Entity,” a group of sixty individuals convened over Zoom. Throughout the virtual meeting, Leland triumphantly announced their success, exclaiming, “We’re leveraging technology to instill evil and despair directly into the human mind!” In the end, it was revealed that technology served as the ultimate instrument of wickedness for the malevolent force known as “The Kings.”
However, after being promised violence, the ghostly figure known as Gray Man, who made an appearance outside Kristen’s house in Episode 10 (originally intended to be the Season 4 finale, but with additional episodes added), desired more than just Leland’s Zoom declarations about upcoming victories. Instead, he inquired, “What happened to killing the false Antichrist? The one who was baptized?” Gray questioned. “We were promised a Black Mass, a sacrifice of the baby and the mother,” he added. It is assumed that Gray thinks this should be carried out because Timothy’s mission on Earth was thwarted when Kristen’s estranged mother Sheryl (Christine Lahti) secretly took him to get baptized by Father Ignatius (Wallace Shawn) and Sister Andrea (Andrea Martin), but this only makes the need to kill him more compelling in his mind.
On this final occasion, Leland is assigned to infiltrate the Bouchard residence with the intention of eliminating Kristen and Timothy, along with anyone else who might cross his path (Kristen has four daughters, some of whom he’s previously threatened). However, once more, Kristen outsmarts him. Despite her strong desire to end Leland permanently, David and Ben persuade her against such action.
In reference to Season 2’s episode titled “S Is for Silence,” Leland is forced into a malevolently mystical cupboard within an upstate New York monastery, a place where it seems he would endure for eternity. However, as the Kings hint in the interview below, if a platform decides to continue airing “Evil,” Leland might simply be freed from the cabinet.
From my perspective as a film enthusiast, I’d say that at the heart of the narrative, David successfully maneuvers his influence within the Church to revive the Assessor program, this time setting it in Rome. Surprisingly, Kristen, who was initially hesitant, decides to relocate her entire family there.
Ultimately, David didn’t abandon his priesthood because of Kristen, and it’s plausible that Timothy might not be as evil as one would assume regarding the Antichrist role. In one of the series’ climactic scenes, he growls menacingly at Kristen and shows his teeth, but recoils when she puts a pacifier in his adorable mouth. When David queries whether anything is amiss, Kristen reassures him, “No, everything’s fine. Nothing at all,” as they stroll together through Vatican City.
Here, the Kings delve into how the series finale of “Evil” came together.
I just wanted to start with the very end. When did you come up with that final scene of Kristen and David working together as assessors in Rome? Was that always going to be the way the show ended, or was it a necessity dictated by the abbreviated final four?
Michelle King: Not exactly either of those two options. It wasn’t something we initially planned, but it wasn’t solely because there were only four episodes. If we had 10 episodes, we likely would have ended up in the same spot, although the journey might have been more winding.
Robert King: I believe our intention was to explore a scenario where there’s an advancement in the power structure. If Timothy, the child, is the Antichrist, how could he corrupt institutions? In “The Omen,” this was achieved by having him adopted by the U.S. President, and here we wanted a more intriguing approach. Our idea is that the corruption that potentially endangers the Catholic Church could be the means through which the Antichrist enters our world.
Additionally, you might want to add a twist or change the direction slightly at the end, so it doesn’t feel unsatisfying. It should lead somewhere unexpected.
Speaking of Timothy, Kristen sees that snarly little Antichrist face on him — and then shoves a pacifier in his mouth, and just shrugs. On a scale from one to Damien, how concerned should we be about Timothy and the danger he poses going forward?
Robert: Michelle?!
Michelle: Essentially, it hinges on your belief in the supernatural. If you assume there is a supernatural realm and Kristen didn’t merely witness something ordinary but a glimpse of the Antichrist, then yes, you would be worried! However, it’s also important to note that the Antichrist isn’t always visible. So if you believe this, then you must accept that the baptism at least had some impact in concealing its presence.
He’s also the cutest baby.
Robert: Wow, he’s just too cute! Interestingly, the visual effects team had to create a particularly endearing grin for the villain. You see, it needed to have those slight dimples to make it seem evil. If the baby didn’t smile at all, we wouldn’t be able to portray him as wicked. There seems to be a deeper meaning in this – perhaps symbolizing how even the most innocent can appear threatening when we don’t expect it.
With Kristen and David, she’s now moved her whole family to be with him in another country. Was there ever a scenario in which David might have left the priesthood for her?
Michelle: The idea wasn’t thoroughly considered or pursued as a viable option. Although it might have been discussed casually at some point, it was never taken seriously as a potential course of action.
Robert: It seemed very similar to the places where “Fleabag” and possibly “Thornbirds” were set. I believe our focus was always on how to uphold his commitment while also making it both romantic and somewhat tragically romantic.
They’re in love with each other. They’re a family. Kristen is looking chic as hell. What do you see when you think about their future in Rome?
As a film enthusiast, let me share my thoughts on this intriguing dynamic between the characters. In my opinion, David remains true to his promises. This bond seems unbreakable and will persist throughout the narrative as they maintain an intense connection. However, it’s not that their relationship evolves into a physical one – rather, it’s the deep emotional bond that holds them together.
Robert: Yes, I believe she’s a passionate individual. She might engage in many romantic encounters with attractive Italian gentlemen, yet her heart belongs to David.
Leland has been shoved into the cabinet from the monastery in “S Is for Silence” in Season 2. How did you decide that that was going to be his fate?
In my perspective as a fervent admirer, it was the writers’ collective genius that breathed life into the room, not the other way around. There were apprehensions about revisiting the scene where Kristen dispatched the serial killer in the initial season, as it had already been done. However, we craved an explanation that transcended the mundane realm of murder. Remarkably, we found ourselves relishing – if I may use such a term – the spectacle of her choking him, even though her friends were concerned about the potential consequences for her soul.
Yet it’s not closed. You can open it again — Pandora’s Box is meant to be opened, so if someone like Amazon Prime, or Netflix, or a rejuvenated Paramount+ wants to open this show again, there are ways to get him out of that box.
I found it more authentic from a thematic perspective. If Leland embodies evil, then vanquishing such a force isn’t straightforward. At best, you could lock him away, but that’s merely a temporary solution.
Were you concerned at all that a cabinet from a monastery from an episode from Season 2 was too deep of a cut in terms of symbolizing Leland’s final punishment?
Robert: Perhaps there might have been a sixth season, but we’ve decided to conclude the series instead. This decision is in the best interest of us, the actors, and the entire crew.
In the last few minutes, I found myself leaning towards a more poetic style rather than plain prose – even though that sounds quite pompous – perhaps something with a touch of symbolism or metaphor? Can you find a less cringe-worthy way to put it, Michelle? I’m not sure this quite captures it.
Michelle: Yes, it’s a less common reference, but it’s not essential knowledge for grasping the situation. To put it another way, even if you’re not familiar with “S Is for Silence,” they’re essentially hiding him away. You don’t need to delve deeper into that detail.
And that’s the same actor who played Fenna, the nun, in the episode, right? Alexandra Socha?
Robert: Oh, my God, she’s so good. Yes, it was great to see her again.
What do you think is happening to Leland in that cabinet?
Robert: In terms of the real world, Leland won’t survive long as he’ll succumb to starvation. However, when discussing metaphorical scenarios, evil seems to persist beyond human comprehension. It appears to bide its time, waiting patiently, and compiles mental lists of those it intends to harm eventually. If Roger Stone were in that position, he would undoubtedly be mentally noting down names of people he’d seek revenge against.
Roger Stone! During the Zoom meeting of the 60, Leland says, “We’re using technology to plant evil and despair right in the human brain” — which he’s so excited about. How much of the show’s mythology were red herrings in terms of the evil coming to New York and the “false Antichrist,” as they call Timothy during the Zoom?
Robert: Instead of relying on tales from the 16th century for survival, I believe the key lies in a more contemporary approach. The series consistently emphasizes this point in its premiere: “Evil thrives as it communicates with itself.” In essence, social media facilitates this communication among villains across the globe.
From the beginning, our journey led us to this place, a realm where societal issues intertwined with advancements in social media and technology. The crux of it all revolved around Neuralink technology, a groundbreaking concept that blurs the line between humanity and technology. If one were to predict the show’s trajectory from its first season, they might speculate about Neuralinks and the methods behind them, as this is what the series portrays as the ultimate danger. The danger lies in individuals not being fully human; instead, they are a hybrid of humanity and technology, which gives others the power to deceive and dominate you.
When we finally see the 60 on the Zoom, it’s mostly Bill Ackman-ish, corporate white men with names like Dave and Harry, along with some hoofed creatures sprinkled throughout. How did you want to present the 60 visually?
Michelle: Exactly as you describe it — the most banal corporate Zoom.
Robert: Initially, everyone planned to gather at a hotel close to the airport, but there was a sense of apprehension among them since they are traveling salespeople who frequently attend meetings.
In simpler terms, we’ve all experienced exhausting video calls – ones with dozens of participants who need reminders to unmute themselves. So, we found a humorous way to express the monotony of such situations by calling it ‘drudgery’. This drudgery is represented by the endless sequence of meetings, and it seems that this is a modern-day depiction of evil, symbolizing the tedious nature of today’s capitalist system.
Without Leland, what’s going to happen with the 60, do you think?
Robert: It seems to me that Leland has consistently sought advancement within the ranks of evil, constantly striving for higher positions. We often see evil as something with no end, always believing there’s someone more powerful, but alas, there’s always someone higher up. I believe Leland was always reaching for the summit, yet he would inevitably fall short. His focus was on chasing who he believed to be the Antichrist. The twist is, in the end, he turns out to be correct.
I was interested in the idea that Leland has been protecting Kristen all these years, or at least that’s the perception. Can you talk about that a bit?
Michelle: It seems there’s a mixed feeling towards her. He certainly has affection for her, or as much as one can have love, given his capacity. Or to put it differently, his feelings for her are strong enough that they’ve distracted him somewhat from his goal of damaging her.
It appears that he was enticing her, yet found himself being ensnared as well – when I say “enticing her,” it means leading her towards corruption. Whenever she brandishes a knife at him, he persists by saying, “I’ve never been so determined.” He seems to be someone who wants to steer her towards the wickedness he believes is crucial for the mother of the Antichrist. However, there’s also a hint that he has developed feelings for her due to her allure when she’s violent. Her allure intensifies when she does harmful and malicious things, making her evil in nature. Therefore, I believe Leland has always been somewhat conflicted, which is why he drinks so much of his root beer before going there at the end to kill her. And do pay attention to Roger Miller’s music.
In terms of your priorities in bringing the show to a close, what were the questions you felt you had to answer in the series finale?
Michelle: How things stand with David, Kristen, and Ben as a group. Current status of the Assessors program. Any updates on Leland’s situation.
Robert: I’m curious about the significance of the number 60, and what lies ahead for them, regardless of whether they are defeated or not. To us, they seem indestructible. David’s relationship with the Entity, or allies of the Vatican. The courts appear unable to eradicate evil, as Leland’s trial seems to be going smoothly for us, but then — in a manner that might suggest corruption — the judge prevents the crucial witness from testifying.
What are some things you might’ve addressed if you’d had more time?
Robert: Working with Wally Shawn was delightful, yet he grappled with his disbelief, particularly when collaborating with Sister Andrea. It makes me wonder about the serenity that Wally Shawn seeks, and I’m unsure if there is such a place for him. In other words, I ponder whether there exists a tranquil sanctuary for him where he can find comfort with his affection for the monsignor.
It’s desirable that Ben, upon seeing his doppelganger again, reflects, “It’s time I start my own family.” This was the intended implication because in the story of the doppelganger, Aasif (Ben’s real-life counterpart) has a wife and child.
It was?!
Robert: Yeah!
Oh, I love that. I felt Ben’s yearning came through, actually.
Robert: Great! He casts his gaze towards the solitude of his apartment, appreciating the stranger within, undoubtedly. Our intention with these doubles was to gradually acclimate the actors into their real-life roles. After all, Katja is Dutch, so she has a Dutch counterpart performing on street corners. As for Mike, who’s famous for “Luke Cage,” we wanted him to get back into his kickboxing groove.
With the Andy storyline, did the success of “Colin From Accounts” mess up any plans you had with Patrick Brammall?
Michelle: In series television, you’re constantly dealing with issues like actor availability, location constraints, time, budget, and so on. These factors must be considered when shaping the narrative. Therefore, while we deeply appreciated Patrick’s willingness to adjust his schedule and come to the U.S. to wrap up Andy’s story, he couldn’t have been present throughout the entire production process.
Robert: We got our best moment with him during the third season. He was with us for four days, and that’s when his character took some intriguing turns. To be honest, we wanted more, but I believe, as Michelle pointed out, that’s just the kind of TV show we produce — we prioritize the actor, even if their availability is challenging.
Is the djinn that was tormenting Ben gone?
Michelle: It’s not safe to believe that any demon or djinn has truly been defeated; at most, we might experience a temporary respite.
Robert: What we meant was, he seemed to be re-entering reality, given he no longer held the position of an assessor. It felt like a ghost or a shadow followed them during their assessment period.
Ben says they were making $65,000 a year as assessors. Why did you want to get that figure into the finale?
Michelle: To emphasize the discrepancy between his potential income from a non-Church job versus his current one, we compared various professions such as police officers, teachers, and assessors. Our goal was to ensure that all these occupations belonged to the same category for a fair comparison.
Robert: Essentially, they stuck together tightly due to the deep connection and camaraderie they shared, with Ben making some personal sacrifices. Notably, the series often presented a struggle against the ill effects of capitalism.
What was with the Mike Flanagan shoutouts this season, including in the series finale?
Robert: I found it amusing, yet I can’t quite explain why. A couple of passages from “Midnight Mass” resonated with me – they speak about how life’s hopefulness lies in our atoms becoming one with the universe, and in doing so, we become part of the cosmos. To me, this is terrifying, but it seems to be a subtle acknowledgement of someone else who grapples with what it means to confront horror.
Did you originally plan for the show to go a certain number of seasons or was it open ended?
Michelle: It was open ended.
Robert: I think in our dream of dreams, it would be two more seasons.
What was the reason you were given for the show being canceled?
Michelle: Well, it seems like everything’s about finances right now. It’s not a lack of love for the show or any other issue, but rather an industry-wide reduction in size. And this is definitely impacting Paramount Global, as evidenced by all these job cuts and shows being postponed.
Robert: Prior to its release on Netflix, the model still seemed to revolve around subscriptions, with shows that have numerous episodes constantly discussing shelf space – as if we’re running a shoe store. Basically, there isn’t enough space to accommodate new shoes, so we move the old ones aside. However, we continued our efforts because we noticed it was performing exceptionally well and generating interest in seasons three and four on Paramount+, leading us to keep pushing for more content.
However, I believe Paramount+ wasn’t clear about its direction or future plans, which made cancellation seem like the prudent decision. Still, we feel it could be a valuable addition, despite needing some adjustments to make it happen.
I agree, of course. How was it that it was four episodes that you were given to finish the series?
As a movie enthusiast, I must admit, it felt like they were giving us just enough room to wrap up the story in a satisfying way. Looking back, I believe this was the right move. Granted, we could’ve used another season or two for more depth, but with four episodes at our disposal, I truly believe we managed to give the story a fitting end.
Robert: Indeed, it seemed clear that there would be additional seasons ahead, which is why we didn’t feel compelled to shut down after the fourth season. However, during the strike, things took a turn. Later, George Cheeks and David Stapf informed us, “It appears this will be the final one.”
Following this, their admiration towards us, coupled with our mutual appreciation, made us eager to work together even more. They mentioned that adding four more episodes might offer us the opportunity to conclude the series. As we didn’t have that chance at the end of the fourth season, we jumped at the prospect. If they offered “one extra episode and funds for lunch,” we would take it without hesitation. Anything to bring a satisfying conclusion to our story. Otherwise, it would seem odd, even strange. Truly, it would be quite peculiar.
When you reconvened after the strike to plan what those four episodes were going to be, how were you balancing bringing the characters to a resolution versus bringing the mythology story to a conclusion, and providing answers for that?
Michelle: Very much both. It was never either/or, they were both priorities.
Robert: It can be challenging to distinguish one issue from another. At the start of each season, we ponder, “What are the lingering mysteries or apparent jokes that might have misled us initially? What seemed insignificant or amusing, but viewers showed curiosity about? What do we need to clarify?” Essentially, we’re always aiming to address questions we believe the audience may be wondering about.
Frequently, the series relies on the concept that evil doesn’t necessarily have a resolution, and the strange remains elusive to complete understanding. As a result, debates arise about which answer merely poses another question. Is this a sign of a problem within the show, or does it contribute to its power?
In the storm episode, which would’ve been just the Season 4 finale, why was that the time to kill Sheryl?
Robert: We discussed Episode 6 with her and shared our intention about the plot direction. It seemed like Sheryl was isolated from Kristen’s story due to their intense mutual disappointment. Resolving this was difficult. From the start, everyone believed that Sheryl’s story would involve her transformation from a femme fatale to someone who selflessly sacrifices herself. This was reflected in the series, and it felt as though after Sheryl’s death, there should have been at least one or two more seasons to explore the consequences of her demise. Michelle, do you have any additional thoughts? (Paraphrased for clarity and easier reading)
Michelle: To be honest, we’ve already explored the conflict between Kristen and Sheryl quite extensively, with Sheryl working against Kristen, followed by some resolution. It felt repetitive, so I thought it would be better to give their story a more definitive ending.
The actors have been out there talking about how they’d love to do more, and you’ve both said — even during this interview — you would want to do more. Do you have ideas about what a continuation, were there to be one, would look like?
Michelle: To clarify, all characters except Sheryl are alive and interacting with each other. The wickedness in the world persists, so there’s no indication it’s time to conclude the story. However, I believe we managed to create something that will be fulfilling for our fans.
Robert: Essentially, we aimed to poke fun at “The Good Wife” and its spin-off “Good Fight,” using the courtroom as our canvas. We’re only presenting a compressed version of legal proceedings in the initial two episodes. The main focus is on the struggle to combat wickedness through the law or justice system, and we’ll explore various scenarios that show how the legal system itself can harbor evil, similar to how the third season tackled corporate America and its dark aspects.
Another aspect of the series was going to explore doppelgangers – characters who seemed to live parallel lives. We intended to peer into their world, observe how they lived, and then return. This dual exploration would be handled by our cast, providing a glimpse of an alternate reality. In essence, it’s like seeing the road not taken. So, we had some intriguing ideas lined up, and even now, we enjoy creating puppet shows at night to amuse ourselves.
Zoom me in! Robert, you were directing the series finale; Michelle, I assume you were on set that day. What was the last day like? What was the final scene you shot?
Michelle: When concluding a show, it’s rarely as straightforward as one might anticipate because actors wrap up their scenes on varying days. Therefore, the final day you film isn’t necessarily the last day for any given actor. So, it’s more like a continuous farewell.
In a different turn of events compared to “Good Fight,” everyone gathered in a Vatican setting this year. Following that, the final scene captured Aasif alongside his sister, as she was dying in a vision seen through goggles. It was an impactful emotional finale, leaving us all on the brink of tears, knowing it’s our last time together like this.
Not only did we find it challenging to depart from that studio, but it held special significance for us due to filming “Good Fight” and a part of “Good Wife.” The studio was adorned with autographs of countless guest stars, including Elaine May. Consequently, dismantling these memories was equally hard.
Now that you’ve had a few months since you finished the final episode, what have you found that you are missing the most about “Evil”?
Robert: The writers’ hangout and the performers. The writers’ hangout is such a blast! You see, we’ve been through a pandemic together, much like the one in “The Good Fight” room, which was also quite enjoyable, and everyone would discuss current events. Here, the youngest among us had a passion for horror films, constantly sharing her latest discoveries and seeming to know everything about them – she was like an encyclopedia on the subject.
Michelle: Nialla LeBouef.
Absolutely, Nialla! Not only did Katja, Mike, and Aasif bring an enjoyable vibe to the production, but adding Andrea Martin to the mix elevated it even further, making it a truly delightful experience as a movie critic.
Michelle: Kurt Fuller!
Robert: It was an interesting ensemble. You know, those productions where they gather diverse individuals and expect them to collaborate effectively, hoping that everyone will move towards a common goal and provide entertainment. Sometimes it doesn’t pan out.
This time, it was as good of a group as you could find.
This interview has been edited and condensed.
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2024-08-23 00:53