‘I’m Not an Ingénue Anymore, and I Don’t Really Know That I Ever Was’

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Jenny Slate recounts the instance when she informed her representative, “I’m no longer a budding actress, and I’m not sure I ever truly was.” Early in her career, the actress and comedian felt compelled to embody an ingénue role — however, it never felt like a comfortable fit. Consequently, she was often given minor roles that didn’t allow her to fully showcase her abilities. After reaching 40, she chose to decline one of these limited roles, expressing to her agent her desire to wait for the larger, more impactful projects she aspired to tackle. This led to the creation of Dying for Sex.

Titled “Dying for Sex“, this show is penned by Liz Meriwether and Kim Rosenstock, inspired by the 2020 podcast of the same name led by Nikki Boyer and Molly Kochan. It chronicles Kochan’s journey after receiving a stage-four cancer diagnosis, as she embarks on a quest to explore her sexuality before her passing. The story follows Kochan as she exits her ordinary marriage and dives into a lively, emotional exploration of desire.

Molly Kochan’s performance in the show is one of her career highlights, seamlessly transitioning between humor and drama, life and death, Shakespearean depth and modern wit. Her versatility is evident, with scenes ranging from boisterous physical comedy to sharp dialogue, intense emotional outbursts, and moments of tender stillness.

In one scene, she cheerfully encourages Molly to discover her path to orgasm; in another, she fiercely advocates for Molly against a hospital administrator; in yet another, she lies on the bathroom floor with Molly, attempting to conceal her tears. “It was a liberating experience,” Slate reflects. “To break free from stereotypes.

As I was turning down a job offer, my agent called with an intriguing script for “Dying for Sex.” Was it from Liz Meriwether and Kim Rosenstock? I don’t recall. What I do remember is that instead of rushing into another role, I wanted something truly meaningful. So, I had a chemistry reading instead.

Have you ever found yourself in a similar predicament before? When I was collaborating with Dean Fleischer-Camp on the Marcel the Shell shorts and felt compelled to bring the character to life myself because I couldn’t explain it, I had that exact feeling. It was the same sensation when I was penning my books. This time around, it was more about channeling my acting abilities. I sense that I now possess all the necessary tools for a multi-dimensional performance, and I’ve simply been waiting for the opportunity. Admittedly, it’s nerve-wracking to say so, especially given my mortgage obligations, but my agents affirmed my sentiments, expressing their support and relief.

How did you know there was more you could do without actually doing it? For me, it’s like having a constant hunger – I can’t live without creating or performing. However, the opportunities given to me are not exactly what I desire, yet they still satisfy my craving. It feels like a privilege to receive what I yearn for so deeply. I believe many performers have this struggle, and it seems harder than ever. As an actor, especially as a woman, you might hear things like “you’re going to get less” as you age. So, I always feel like I’m searching for the right roles.

Are you referring to your entire acting career? Yes, that’s accurate. My career has been marked by my underdog status since middle school, yet I’ve had numerous wins and a fulfilling life. However, finding the right roles has always been a challenge. Despite receiving many roles and being grateful for them, they don’t always feel like a perfect fit. Parenthood and rekindling my relationship with my husband have brought about a transformation within me. I started to realize aspects of myself that I hadn’t seen clearly before – qualities like strength, control, and forgiveness. A feeling suddenly emerged: I know what I need, and there’s not much time to waste. Then, the script for “Dying for Sex” came along. It felt almost like meeting a soulmate, where if they didn’t reciprocate my feelings, it would break my heart.

What was it specifically about the script that made you think, “This is something I’d love to do, but I can see why they might not pick me”? However, regarding this particular script, I couldn’t fathom why they wouldn’t consider me for the role. Yet, I knew there were others auditioning for it, and I had to put in extra effort to ensure my readiness.

Can you recall anything from the chemistry reading you attended on December 18, 2023? That day, I arranged child care as my husband was away. I traveled by train from Providence to New York and found myself seated at a four-person table with a family of three – two kids and their mom, who were off to see the Rockettes. The script was quite explicit, but I had planned to listen to music through headphones while mouthing along. However, due to frequent use of the word “fuck,” which the character seemed to say a million times, it proved challenging. The kids were dressed in coordinated outfits from L.L.Bean and J.Crew catalogues, making it awkward for me to swear or even whisper such words in their presence.

In simpler terms,

Michelle had a large notebook, wore a black sweater, pants, and a belt, and was huddled up. Seeing her like that made me think, “She’s passionate about this,” which encouraged me to care deeply too. I admire Michelle as one of my favorite actors. My spouse and I had recently watched the movie “Showing Up” and I kept reminding myself that it might be our only chance to work with Michelle. In the future, if we’re older, I would be glad to know I got to perform that scene with her. I was very anxious and sweaty beforehand. I even called one of my sisters from the waiting room, expressing my worry, “I fear I might mess this up, I want it so much.

How did you find our performance in the room? We performed a scene that didn’t make it to the final cut. My character was somewhat critical of Molly for her reluctance to take risks. In that moment, Michelle looked at me as if I had crossed a line, conveying You’re pushing my boundaries right now. That glance carried an instant recognition: She’s clearly angry with me right now. I can hardly find the words to describe it. It felt like a delicate border between being yourself and playing a character, almost like being in a dream. You sense you are safe, yet not fully yourself, but something is happening to you. I recall thinking, Will I ever see this person again? So I decided to stare back at her intensely. It only fueled my desire for everything even more. Then I had to quickly catch the train and head home.

What strategy did you employ while enduring the waiting phase? (Alternatively, How did you cope with the waiting period?)

In retrospect, it seems like it was around Christmas and New Year’s. It felt like an eternity. I made a conscious effort not to dwell on it. After all, it sprung up unexpectedly, so I found myself thinking, If it doesn’t materialize, you never truly believed it would. However, the prospect of working on that set was something I had missed deeply in my daily life for quite some time. It’s been a while since I’ve enjoyed such a prolonged, positive work experience.

How did you react when you were informed you had won it? Oh boy, I was overwhelmed with emotion. I felt like I was on cloud nine. The realization that I didn’t feel like a fraud and had never before been faced with such a vast array of material, requiring me to navigate through so many different emotions – I couldn’t help but be overjoyed. And I continue to feel this way. It opened up a whole new world for me. To break free from the stereotype or limiting label of being just a comedy actor. Can I see myself as the versatile actor that I am, without self-imposed or externally placed restrictions? Can I focus on simply doing the work, rather than constantly defining it?

Did this project resonate with you in some way?

Definitely. Michelle’s approach to everything, which feels very relatable to me, is a big part of that. It makes tackling the project feel effortless. Additionally, the writing was exceptional – it covered such a wide range of topics, from comedy to movement to intense dissociation. There were even detailed descriptions of human physiology thrown in. It’s also clear that Liz Meriwether has grown as a writer, which I found inspiring. What particularly struck me about Liz is her ability to move beyond just comedy, demonstrating a versatility that I appreciate. And please know that I’m not implying that comedy is insignificant or of no value – it’s just one aspect of the project that impressed me.

It seems you’re emphasizing that it’s something she’s widely recognized for. To put it another way, Liz excels in writing both dramatic and humorous pieces, with a unique blend of edge, romance, and eroticism. The act of doing this was incredibly gratifying for her.

How did you manage your preparations given that this event seemed extremely significant to you? However, due to a series of events such as our family relocation, my daughter’s first day at preschool, promotions for my upcoming stand-up special (released in February 2024), and the ongoing work on my book, I found myself feeling rather overwhelmed. As a result, I didn’t get to prepare as much as I had initially planned, leaving me with the feeling that I wasn’t adequately ready for what I perceived as the most crucial thing I’ve ever undertaken.

“What you shared is truly captivating. It seemed more significant than any of Marcel’s works or anything you’ve written, almost as if it held the utmost importance. In this instant, I felt like my work was the most crucial thing I’ve ever done.”

At what point did you initially contact Nikki? That would’ve likely been after I moved to New York, through an email exchange. We didn’t communicate via text messages, and I don’t recall we ever spoke on the phone. The reason for my apprehension was that it was a significant honor and demanding project. Previously, I had portrayed characters based on real people, but Nikki was very close to the time when these events unfolded.

Absolutely. I simply wanted to verify she was comfortable with me. Afterward, our connection took off spontaneously. If you didn’t already know, when we first met, she arrived on set wearing her regular clothes, and so was I in my costumes – we were both dressed identically! Quite a coincidence, isn’t it? The initial day was so overwhelming for me that I barely recall it. All I remember is telling myself to stay calm, assuring myself that there was nothing wrong, and that it was normal to feel nervous around one of my favorite actors, among people I admire, and working on a project based on two individuals’ most intense experiences ever. However, I do recall thinking at the end of the day, “I don’t know.

Of all aspects, what about it made you feel most apprehensive?

I didn’t want to disappoint Michelle or Nikki, but that wasn’t because I wanted to let Liz, Kim, Shannon, or anyone else down. When working with people who have achieved such remarkable feats as Michelle or gone through something so deeply personal, the thought of not being a suitable fit was truly terrifying to me. However, I’ve learned to trust myself when taking big risks. Although I don’t enjoy the sensation, I usually manage to cover great ground and usually end up in the right place.

Have you made any other significant strides that have been successful for you? For me, diving into comedy specials and writing books has been quite the leap. Writing them is a big step as it resonates with my experience in creating Dying for Sex. I realized, or perhaps confirmed, that within me lies an extremely private sanctuary. There are words etched on those walls that only I understand, and I can hear their unique rhythm. It echoes a lot like my comedy, resembling Marcel, but it’s more enchanting. It’s more like watercoloring, capturing the true essence of my emotions, not just the appearance of my performances. And it truly represents me.

Initially, when conversing with Nikki, I inquired about aspects of her character, particularly her anger, as it’s a trait I don’t often express myself. I wanted to understand the depth of her emotions, especially since I find myself holding back from expressing my feelings, which can lead to regret at times. I also asked about her sense of grief and how she felt about our presence in her story’s setting or the changes made to the story. Furthermore, I was curious about her experiences with Molly, but held off on asking about her experience watching Molly pass away until we were both present.

Instead of asking “Why not?”, consider rephrasing it as “What do you think about sending me the pictures of Molly when she was sick?” or “Would it be possible for you to share those images today?” This maintains the original intent but sounds more polite and inviting in natural, easy-to-read language.

Did seeing the photos of Molly’s passing ultimately bring a sense of gratitude to you on that day? The images served as a source of comfort in an odd way, yet there was a delicate balance. Each time I revisited them, I silently expressed my thanks. As our production concluded, I unexpectedly found myself saying, “Thank you to Nikki. Thank you, Molly.” While it’s not my role, it’s the director’s, none of us would have been present without her willingness to share this experience with us.

In creating the character Nikki, it was a mix of fine-tuning her on the page based on my own intuition and personal touch, while also drawing from the information she had shared with me. This allowed for a dynamic development process where Nikki became more fleshed out as I grew more comfortable with her, rather than having everything about her figured out at the start. In many ways, my approach mirrors how I understand myself – constantly evolving in response to new experiences and opportunities, even though there are certain aspects of Nikki that resonate strongly with me.

I take great care with myself and my belongings. I dislike getting wet or feeling cold. In my younger years, I may have been seen wandering around inebriated on the streets, but I would never engage in the same reckless behaviors as Nikki on the show, which seem to negatively impact her personal life. I am an organized person and would not possess a bag like that. Although I did at one point, I no longer do. My purse may be messy at times, but it’s not nearly as chaotic as that one. Furthermore, I don’t believe I would feel comfortable serving as a companion to someone going through cancer treatments in the same way Nikki does on the show, by readily offering to help.

Why not indeed? If my best friend requested it, I’d oblige, for her sake. However, I would approach the situation differently than that character does. In this case, I was questioning Nikki about the doctor. She was furious with him for disregarding Molly’s early signs of cancer and wrote him numerous letters, expressing her outrage. That’s not something I personally would consider doing. Instead, I felt compelled to say, That feels genuine. Even though it wasn’t depicted in the show, what was shown was Nikki yelling at someone from across the street – another action I wouldn’t feel comfortable taking and didn’t want to do on that particular day amidst the bustling crowds of New York City.

Did it prove challenging for you to take that shot?
Yes, indeed. It was quite a challenge. I could feel the intensity of Nikki’s anger within me. The sense of profound injustice and the realization that I might lose the only person who cares for me, while I don’t even care for myself. And you, how do you bring such feelings to life?

In a more relaxed phrasing, you could rephrase it as: “How did I manage during that time? Well, I was frequently wearing my headphones, hiding my face and trying not to disturb anyone on set because I didn’t want to annoy them. However, I cried a lot, and it was tough to break free from those emotions. I didn’t aim to be Nikki; instead, I focused on understanding the essence of the project, as she and Molly appeared to be spiritually connected. I mainly listened to the entire podcast towards the end because I didn’t want to get too caught up in trying to mimic her, since she seemed unconcerned about that aspect. Instead, I concentrated on the overall vibe of the project.

Michelle seems delicate, as if even a simple touch might cause her pain. We both are extremely sensitive individuals. I find myself asking for permission before making any physical contact, like wanting to kiss her hair or touch her hand, and then allowing things to unfold naturally between us due to our newfound bond. This intimacy in the story surpasses the level of intimacy we share in real life because we are just getting to know each other better.

And then you’re both grasping each other’s breasts. Yes, I’m quite reserved about my body. My long-time friend and I have just started undressing in front of each other, having been friends for twenty years. It requires a significant amount of bravery for me to let someone other than a medical professional or romantic partner touch my breasts.

During our conversation last night, I said something like, “It seems Molly and Nikki are in love. Why aren’t they just dating?” Nikki found it hilarious and responded, “You see, Molly is straight.”

In this version, I tried to maintain the original meaning while using more natural and easy-to-read language, focusing on a conversational tone that reflects the dialogue between the characters.

How did that bond between them and Michelle develop, if you wouldn’t mind? For me, it seemed like something organic that just unfolded. What made it intriguing was the fact that many of us working there had kids around the same age. I noticed a shift in my intention: I wanted Michelle to feel at ease with me during our casual conversations about lunch plans or shopping for baby clothes or sharing book recommendations, and so on. However, I believe everyone on set also needed the freedom to say goodbye and leave when they needed to attend to their kids. It was the first time I felt a genuine connection with a co-star, one that felt real, appropriate, and healthy outside of the scripted scenes.

Initially, it wasn’t necessary for us to be each other’s closest confidants, but somehow we developed a strong friendship. It can happen that people grow incredibly close, especially when they work together closely. Michelle, in particular, is someone I find fascinating. I’m curious about her interests, her thoughts, and what she’s all about. She’s knowledgeable, thoughtful, and caring about global issues. She also happens to be a great cook, making dinner with her an enjoyable experience.

During particularly challenging days of filming, I would often find myself thinking, “I can’t keep up with this character all day, then come home and spend our potty time on the bathroom floor.” On the set while filming the scene where Molly was dying, Michelle drew Sissy Spacek and me into a tight embrace. It was at that instant I began to question, “Will I be able to cope once this is over?”, as the real Molly had indeed passed away, making the scene all too real.

After the shoot, I decided to change my appearance and asked myself: “I can no longer resemble Nikki.” Then, I went ahead and had a drastic haircut.

Did you get a new haircut?
Yes, I’ve significantly altered my appearance. I’ve found myself adhering to a demanding morning routine: journaling, meditating for thirty minutes – these are essential practices to prevent me from being overwhelmed with ADHD tendencies. Besides completing my book, I took extended walks and felt quite melancholic that the job had ended. However, it didn’t feel incomplete or unresolved. Instead, I experienced loneliness. I knew this feeling would pass, but it was unfamiliar to me.

Has everyone managed to stay connected?
Following my recent haircut, I dined out with Liz and Michelle. As Michelle was strolling down the street, she spotted me and exclaimed, “Oh my God!” due to the new hairstyle. She seemed taken aback, saying, “This feels strange right now. What happened to you… You look…” She was quite complimentary but added, “It’s going to take me a moment to adjust.” We just sat in the restaurant, gazing at each other, it was both beautiful and strange seeing each other in our everyday attire after so long.

In your forties, you’ve experienced a peak of emotional and physical well-being, and you’ve always felt sexually invigorated, if not downright passionate. As for the recent trend in media showcasing women in their 40s experiencing sexual awakenings or reaching the pinnacle of their sexual experiences, I wonder if this message resonates with your personal experiences or those of your friends?

Did the program cause you to ponder your own mortality?

To be honest, I rarely contemplate my own death. Not at all. However, the show sparked a fear of illness in me. I visited every doctor possible. I was convinced that something was amiss with me. I went through an agonizing back injury.

How did things unfold? It seems carrying Nikki’s heavy bag may have caused an injury to me. They attempted to lighten the load, but unfortunately, it got damaged. I then began physical therapy and made some progress. However, being immersed in the subject matter and having a tendency, as a non-religious person, to be a neurotic Jew who frequently worries about health issues, led me to suspect I had a tumor. This thought did cross my mind.

Has the hypochondriacal phase ended for you?
It seems things have settled back to their usual pace. I’ve spent quite a bit of time pondering, “This is my one shot”. Molly has taught me a great deal. I touched upon it somewhat in my initial book, but delved deeper into the subject during this job: What lies within us that creates not so much a healthy boundary, but rather a confined area where we restrict ourselves? And what work needs to be done to break free from it?

What obstacle or challenge did you overcome?

The author suggests that they struggled with self-destructive behaviors and feelings of deprivation, which stemmed from a fear of criticism. This job helped them break free from these patterns. The character Molly experienced abuse, feeling special to her abuser, which might be interpreted as her internalizing the idea that the abuse was somehow her fault. Many people, including those who haven’t experienced abuse, may carry feelings of self-blame or guilt throughout their lives. This could be seen as an obstacle they must overcome.

I can totally empathize with Molly’s story, as it resonates deeply with me due to my own child. It’s heartbreaking to imagine her going through similar struggles. However, I also found a part of me that unknowingly harbored feelings of self-loathing for a prolonged period, not because of any negative experiences, but rather a misconception that I was inherently flawed. Now, I’ve come to understand that this notion is false. We all make mistakes, but we are not defined by them. I no longer feel the need to conceal my flaws or shortcomings.

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2025-04-09 17:59