Willem Dafoe on the Art of Surrender

As a student of art and cinema, I have always been captivated by the enigmatic and versatile figure that is Willem Dafoe. His life journey, as much as his acting career, has been a mesmerizing tapestry woven with threads of resilience, passion, and an unwavering commitment to his craft.

Since his debut in Kathryn Bigelow’s 1982 biker drama, “The Loveless“, Willem Dafoe has consistently avoided being a “Oh, I know that guy!” type actor whose name you might need to search up. His distinctive lean and sharp-featured face is instantly recognizable. Similarly, his deep, gravelly voice is unmistakable and has been utilized in various roles, from the compassionate Jesus and the introspective Vietnam War soldier to the troubled Vincent van Gogh and the chaotic Green Goblin villain.

Originally hailing from Wisconsin, Daniel Day-Lewis honed his acting skills on the stages of experimental theaters in Milwaukee and later New York City. He’s been a prominent figure in American cinema since his portrayal of a ruthless counterfeiter in William Friedkin’s “To Live and Die in L.A.” At 69 years old, with four Oscar nominations, he resembles the iconic Gene Hackman from the past. Known as an actor’s actor, Day-Lewis is admired for his combination of dedication and inquisitiveness that guides his career decisions. He values his public persona as an artist, regularly nourishing his creativity with music, literature, and visual art, and frequently attends new movies to discover emerging talent, having offered himself to Eggers after being impressed by the filmmaker’s debut “The Witch.” Speaking candidly from Rome, where he resides part-time, Day-Lewis shared insights about artistic work with a straightforward elegance that’s uncommon.

In essence, you’ve tackled different roles within the same general theme – one as Nosferatu in a film and another as the character hunting him. However, the feelings and experiences associated with each role are vastly distinct. As an actor, I find it challenging to concurrently compare or contrast these two roles due to the need to immerse myself fully in each new character. When embarking on a project, I must let go of everything else, just as one might when falling in love, and focus solely on the present relationship.

What specifically appeals to you about Eggers’s work? You’ve also acted in The Northman and The Lighthouse. Eggers creates such immersive worlds, and he does so with a deep-seated dedication. He believes that contemporary themes can be effectively explored by reimagining tales from the past. For him, period pieces are not just artifacts to be displayed; they’re experiences to be lived. This immersion is partly due to his knack for seamlessly integrating various filmmaking elements. Many directors, in my view, focus more on certain aspects of filmmaking and outsource others. Eggers, however, has a hand in everything, not as a dictator but as someone who attracts collaborators with whom he shares a connection and understanding. Together, they craft this world, ensuring that nothing feels half-hearted or superfluous. Everything serves a purpose, making it easier for actors to fully immerse themselves in the world as well.

When portraying characters like a motel manager in The Florida Project or a drug dealer in Light Sleeper, the characters are relatable due to their human emotions and situations that many viewers can connect with. However, when acting as a vampire or a hunter of vampires, how do you make these characters feel authentic and plausible? One method is through the use of extreme makeup, such as in Shadow of the Vampire or Poor Things, which provides an entry point into a world of pretending since you physically transform, affecting your feelings as well. If the makeup is done correctly, it can be liberating, allowing you to explore different impulses and thoughts by seeing yourself transformed in the mirror. This transformation allows you to embody a completely new character, which I experienced when putting on the teeth of Bobby Peru in Wild at Heart and was unable to close my mouth.

In the Spider-Man films, it was decided that Norman Osborn, also known as the Green Goblin, would wear prosthetic teeth in his everyday persona but keep his real teeth for when he transformed into the Green Goblin. One of the producers felt that a CEO character wouldn’t have teeth with imperfections like mine, which I found amusing. So, they agreed to put caps on my teeth to make me look more polished as a businessman, while allowing my true self, the Green Goblin, to show off my natural, less-than-perfect teeth.

Have you ever felt pressured to alter your appearance, such as getting Botox, veneers, or similar treatments, for the sake of your career in Hollywood? Not once. They don’t require a Hollywood smile when they choose me, and that’s never been an issue. I have a dynamic face, so it’s best to keep it natural.

Have you come across the Willem Dafoe memes that are popular online? The Lighthouse Keeper character and his line about being a bit of a scientist have been quite prevalent, but if he were to mention another profession instead, that’s what some of the memes show. I tend to steer clear of such things, but they occasionally find their way to me. Mostly, I find them quite entertaining. I had a great experience working on The Lighthouse. It’s not always appropriate to express it, but I genuinely enjoyed that film.

It’s not smart to express your preference for movies since it’s equally unwise to say you dislike them. Keep yourself out of the picture! At present, I’m engaged in media work and conversing with you. Ideally, you wouldn’t have any personal knowledge about me, such as where I reside or my origin. I would simply be the individual who transforms into others. Excessive information about the actors, production, costs, budgets, and audience expectations relative to the budget – none of this enhances my cinematic experience.

As a movie enthusiast, I’ve noticed a shift in the dynamics between us and films over the past decade or so. It seems that instead of going out to the cinema, many prefer to have the movies delivered right to their living rooms via streaming platforms. This convenience, however, comes with its own set of challenges. With so many options at our fingertips, we tend to sample a variety of films, often moving on quickly if they don’t immediately grab us. The constant searching for ‘the perfect film’ can make it hard to fully immerse ourselves in the art of cinema. Streaming platforms have indeed revolutionized the industry, providing a wealth of content and creating numerous job opportunities, but the downside is that the sheer volume of choices can sometimes distract from the cinematic experience itself.

If you’re unwilling to put in the work, you won’t get much back. This lack of effort often leads to a decline in quality, making things simpler and less thoughtful. Unfortunately, it’s during these times that unthinking and reckless individuals tend to gain power. This isn’t beneficial for our culture or humanity as a whole, and we witness the consequences frequently.

Who were the celebrities that you conversed with during your rise, but you didn’t realize they were famous at the time?

Who do you remind me of? People like Warren Oates and Harry Dean Stanton. When I found out they were actors, I was really impressed because they didn’t seem like typical actors at all. As a kid, I loved horror movies and thought Boris Karloff was amazing, while Vincent Price made me laugh. I never had that classic Hollywood vibe of stars like Monty Clift or Marlon Brando.

It’s intriguing that Marlon Brando often overshadowed the films he was in, to the point where one might wonder if he was fully engaged with the project. This leads us to ponder: Can a strong performance be found within a subpar film? After all, who is ultimately accountable for the quality of a movie? The entire production, including acting, directing, and scriptwriting, forms the final product. Therefore, isn’t it challenging to single out an exceptional performance if it doesn’t contribute to the overall success of the film?

It’s not uncommon to see strong performances in subpar films. The circumstances behind such a situation are often mysterious. I can’t help but ponder if the exceptional actor simply had the determination to resist any negative feedback they might have received, while others didn’t?

In a different phrasing: Is that what you’re suggesting?Directors are often thought to privately coach actors and instruct them to “try again”. However, in my experience, these conversations are more about the psychological aspects of the role. It’s generally more practical than that, but it might be different for other directors. Perhaps I just get free rein!

Have you ever found yourself in a situation where someone was urging you strongly to perform in a specific way and you chose to go against the flow by doing something else instead? I must admit, there might have been instances when I felt pressured into a direction that didn’t sit well with me. Yet, rather than standing firm, I usually seek alternative ways to fulfill their expectations while still maintaining my own satisfaction. Once I’m on set, I let go and surrender myself to the process because that’s the essence of filmmaking – it has its own life, it can thrive or falter, but it always evolves. And as a creator, you have to be attuned to these shifts.

Absolutely! To put it simply, surrendering might mean letting go of your personal perspective, opening up to new ideas or approaches, and embracing diverse emotions and sensations.

You’ve starred in many movies that serve as portals, offering unique perspectives on life – a valuable contribution to our cultural landscape.

Are you interested in collaborating with filmmakers who pursue such projects? To be clear, the project found me, and I approached Wes Anderson. He attended a theater performance by The Wooster Group. We shared a wonderful dinner together. He mentioned he’d love to work with me, but he was going to Italy for a movie shoot that was already cast. He suggested we might connect again in five years. Approximately three months later, I received a call from Wes. It turned out someone had dropped out of his film, and he wanted me to take the role. So, I accepted and starred in The Life Aquatic, which not only provided an enjoyable experience with Wes, but also introduced me to my wife.

In your films directed by Wes Anderson, I’ve often found myself taking on roles that could be described as impactful cameos, where I enter the scene, make a lasting impression, and then exit – such as the dancing rat with a switchblade in “The Fantastic Mr. Fox,” the bookkeeper in “The French Dispatch,” and the assassin in “The Grand Budapest Hotel.” What draws me to these roles is simply being part of his creative process. He’s an exceptional director, continually improving and refining his craft. Working within his unique world is enjoyable because the atmosphere is so finely tuned.

“One of my favorite roles you played is Klaus in The Life Aquatic, as his character was unexpected for me if I were to guess based on a summary alone. To my surprise, Willem Dafoe portrayed a blowhard German, challenging the stereotype of German efficiency and strength. Prepare for some heated responses from German viewers!

Indeed, let’s dispel those misunderstandings instead. That’s the key to fostering unity among us all.

You began your professional journey with experimental theater at the Wooster Group, which you co-founded in 1980. Can you explain how this experience shaped your work and to what degree its influence remains significant?

In what way has your artistic development been influenced by your past relationship with Elizabeth LeCompte, the Wooster Group’s founder and your ex-partner?

I’ve visited Japan numerous times, and each time I step into the Noh theater, a deep emotion overcomes me due to the passionate performers who embody a rich history and dedication to tradition. It may appear rigid, but it isn’t; instead, it showcases a person living and dying on stage, which is captivating. This sense of life and death is also found in dance – witnessing a body in motion, synchronized with time, is something I find appealing. Whether I’m watching from the audience or performing myself, I strive to experience that magical zone devoid of any transactional or self-centered feelings.

Man, you’re speaking right to my heart here.
Well, take care of it because I’m sticking my neck out!

The dedication to such a gesture is truly captivating.

You spent two years at the University of Wisconsin–Milwaukee before moving on to join a local theater group in Milwaukee and then heading off to New York shortly thereafter. Can you explain why you didn’t complete your degree?

Instead of focusing on showcasing myself like many others did, I’ve always chosen a different path because self-centeredness limits you. It’s more effective to focus on others and aim towards that. This approach expands your horizons and makes you more vibrant and connected with the audience, rather than captivating them with my skills alone. During my childhood holidays, I would return home with all my siblings, who were far more gifted than me in various areas. I’m not being falsely modest; my intentions differed from theirs. While they excelled in singing, dancing, and other talents, what truly captivated me was the idea of immersing myself in something and becoming one with it.

You followed The Wooster Group consistently during the early 2000s. What led you to separate from them?

In 1980, you started your acting career with a film called Heaven’s Gate, but it was William Friedkin’s 1985 movie, To Live and Die in L.A., that really brought you into the spotlight. You portrayed a character named Rick Masters, a counterfeiter being pursued by Secret Service agents. Can you share what it was like working on such an unpredictable project?

Did you know that after it came out, he was using the prop money you used on set to buy things? Because late in his life, he admitted that he had done that.
What do you mean? [Laughs] I made the counterfeit money! You see it in the movie! If you think people didn’t maybe put one in their pocket to see if they could pass it … But, don’t get me arrested! That was a long time ago.

It’s been said that Friedkin often filmed scenes without informing the actors. Is there truth to this claim? I suppose it could be true for some directors.

That method allows for discoveries that are spontaneous and unplanned. If theater is the art of creating an illusion and cinema is the craft of recording a performance, it provides an intriguing perspective to observe events unfolding in such a manner.

As a movie enthusiast, I can share that rumors circulated about my potential fit for the Joker role in Tim Burton’s Batman adaptation. However, contrary to speculation, no official offer was extended to me. Interestingly enough, I found myself on a list of actors being considered for Batman at one point. So, if you’re making that face implying surprise or disbelief, let’s just say the rumor mill can sometimes be quite active!

Oh, really tickled by your suggestion! It’s refreshing to hear something new. You see, I used to read comics like The Dark Knight and The Killing Joke from the ’80s, which had some gritty interpretations of Batman. I think you would have excelled in a storyline like that, but unfortunately, it doesn’t align with our current project.

In this role, I found myself deeply immersed in what I like to call your “Jesus trilogy” of films. The first installment was ‘Platoon’ in 1986, where I portrayed a saintly figure amidst the chaos of war under Oliver Stone’s direction. Then came ‘The Last Temptation of Christ’ in 1988, where Martin Scorsese cast me as Jesus. A year later, I reprised my role as a mentor in another war-themed film, ‘Born on the Fourth of July,’ again working with Oliver Stone and Tom Cruise. The poster for ‘Platoon’ featured an image reminiscent of a crucifixion on a Vietnam battlefield.

During that time, your acting journey took an intriguing turn as you transitioned from playing a significant antagonist in To Live and Die in L.A., to starring in three major productions centered around martyrdom. It’s fascinating to see how one role can pave the way for subsequent opportunities.

It’s pleasant to feign martyrdom, to take bold actions, or to swim against the tide, but we’re focusing on events from three decades ago, which isn’t my primary concern. I’m more interested in contemporary topics. You can often discern a person’s era of movie-watching, or their favorite genres, without me having to ask – it shows in our conversation. I’ve been in this field long enough to easily identify the period of a person’s life from the movies they bring up. When someone discusses ’80s movies and skips over some truly captivating ones, it feels odd to me.

Absolutely, I appreciate your kind words. It’s true that you’ve had a long and illustrious career, one that continues to resonate with people, both from your early work and the recent projects you’ve taken on. Your enthusiasm is contagious, which is why I enjoy collaborating with new talents who are full of energy and optimism. However, it can be challenging when working with individuals who seem to have lost some of that spark, those who believe the best days are behind them. But let’s focus on the topic at hand – whatever you’d like to discuss!

In smaller films, does it seem like there’s more room for you to explore aspects of yourself, since the production may not be as reliant on your established persona or skills? That seems reasonable, considering the larger budget and expectations associated with major productions can sometimes lead to a focus on what is familiar. However, if you were to express that idea to a studio executive, they might find it quite unsettling.

I want to express my admiration for the depth and intelligence you bring to every role, even if some viewers may consider them trivial or like bubblegum. Take the Green Goblin from Spider-Man as an example; you played that character with a level of intensity that rivals Shakespeare’s Macbeth.

Have you ever watched a completed film of your own performance and found yourself taken aback by what you were doing?

What about Lars von Trier resonates with you? His ability to articulate the inarticulable is captivating. The beginning and end of “Antichrist” are cinematic masterpieces. Despite his occasional missteps, I find him intriguing, a man who is relentless in his pursuit of understanding. Many may perceive him as merely a clever man, but humorously, people often accuse his films of being misogynist. However, he identifies with the female characters and narrates their stories in an attempt to unravel mysteries. In “Antichrist,” he tackles themes that many shy away from: men’s fear of women, women’s sexuality, and women’s power – topics that are often considered taboo or frightening. His intention is to alleviate fear, to help us break free from our self-imposed blocks, as we grapple with existential fears.

So, you find yourself outside of Rome currently, but you’ve got a home base in New York as well. I’ve been moving around quite a bit, but I’ve had a place here for about 20 years now. I divide my time between these two cities, which might seem unusual, but they balance each other out in an interesting way.

As a movie enthusiast, you might wonder if my deep affection for Rome stems from my long-standing collaboration with Abel Ferrara, who’s resided here for over two decades now, and with whom I’ve collaborated on six films over the course of 24 years. However, that’s not what initially drew me to this city. But, it’s definitely one of the perks of being here!

Both the character of Tommaso and the filmmaker he’s partly based on have been in recovery for a long time. What is the difference between working with Abel Ferrara sober versus not sober?
Well, the joke is not much. I don’t want to not encourage people to get clean. I think it’s a good thing to do. But personalitywise, Abel is very similar to how he used to be, but because he doesn’t have that devotion to something that’s not on set, it makes him more concentrated.

The films appear to possess a distinct vibe. They’re more thoughtful and precise in their approach.

It appears you often radiate joy, whether performing on stage or during interviews, even when answering seemingly light-hearted questions on the red carpet. This leads me to ponder: Is your cheerfulness constant or is it an acting skill? I’d like to share my perspective: I find myself engaging with people and situations in a playful manner, which I believe adds charm to life. While I am diligent and dedicated, there are moments when the sheer joy of being involved in what I love brings on a sense of excitement that’s hard to suppress. It may seem boastful to express one’s affection for their work, but as the saying goes: Love many things, and the more you do things with love, the more beautiful they become.

That’s quite expressive.

In my conversations with numerous actors, I’ve noticed they sometimes express a somewhat negative view towards their profession. However, you’ve never shown such tendencies. Acting, as you know, can encompass various aspects, some of which might appear foolish, self-centered, or even narcissistic. Yet, it also offers an exceptional opportunity to learn about life, strive for altruism, and empathize with others by assuming different roles.

When do you merely stay at home? When do you simply unwind?

Do you meditate?
Yes, but that’s not my main thing. I do physical practice every day.

Have you been practicing yoga? Seeing you do it at Tommaso made me think that you are truly dedicated to the art of yoga. In fact, yoga combines both a spiritual and physical discipline, which I have been engaged in for 35 years.

Are you involved in any form of visual art, such as painting or drawing? While I wouldn’t classify myself as a painter per se, I do find joy in the process of painting. In the film Eternity’s Gate, I was fortunate to have Julian Schnabel, its director, as my painting mentor. He encouraged me to focus on capturing the light rather than the subject itself, saying “Paint the light, not the tree. Paint what you see.” In essence, it’s about making marks and observing them transform into something greater. This approach helps one appreciate the interplay of things, fostering flexibility in thought and perception. For instance, when I look at a bag of walnuts, instead of just seeing food, I can find a whole world within them. Walnuts become more than just something to eat; they offer a rich tapestry for exploration and understanding.

Is the concept of realism significant to you as an actor?

Indeed, your perspective on cinema aligns with mine in many ways! While some focus heavily on plot development, our attention is drawn more towards the way events unfold. After all, as the old saying goes, “There’s nothing new under the sun.” We both seem to appreciate the artistic choices and techniques that filmmakers employ to tell their stories.

I find it truly remarkable how you consistently express your connection with art, making it evident in every aspect of self-description.

You’ve got a guiding principle that influences your actions, which is beneficial. However, it can sometimes give an ambiguous impression because a philosophy often leads to a specific approach, and there’s always the risk of falling into various forms of corruption. That’s the constant challenge: finding the perfect balance between adherence and freedom. And when you manage to strike that balance – and let’s be honest, it’s not easy for anyone to do this consistently – it feels amazing, almost magical.

What’s the key insight you’ve gained after spending so much time in this field? The answer lies in understanding that actions should not be performed for the sake of results, but rather for the joy they bring during the process itself.

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2024-12-05 15:57