‘These Authoritarians, They Fight Reality All the Time.’

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Kleber Mendonça Filho’s new film, the political thriller The Secret Agent, portrays a Brazil gripped by unrest. The story is set in 1977, during a military dictatorship, a time when many Brazilians suffered from violence, misinformation, and corruption. We’re introduced to Marcelo (Wagner Moura), a university professor and political refugee, and the film unfolds around him, showing the intricate relationships he has with family, fellow activists like Dona Sebastiana (Tânia Maria), and adversaries, such as the young hitman Bobbi (Gabriel Leone). Each character has their own motivations, which often clash. The film is a deeply engaging, timely, inventive, and heartbreaking work that, through its unique approach to genre and storytelling, highlights the striking similarities between Brazil 50 years ago and the world we live in today.

It’s not unusual for Mendonça Filho to draw connections between the past and present – he started as a film critic, made short films, and then directed a string of well-received movies about Brazilian life, including the documentary Pictures of Ghosts and the features Neighbouring Sounds and Aquarius. His films often feature underdog characters and stories, a trait particularly evident in his 2019 film Bacurau, a unique blend of genres that asked what would happen if a small, rural village was attacked by ruthless outsiders. The result was an energetic, unconventional Western brimming with anti-colonial themes, and it won the Jury Prize at Cannes. However, his latest film, The Secret Agent (which also earned awards at Cannes, with Mendonça Filho and Moura winning Best Director and Best Actor, respectively), is a departure. This Oscar-contending film, set to premiere at the New York Film Festival and open in theaters November 26, is paced more slowly than Bacurau. It tells a more expansive story, and its antagonists are all Brazilians harming other Brazilians. Both films are fueled by a dissatisfaction with the current state of affairs and a worry about how future generations will judge us, themes that Mendonça Filho expertly guides to emotionally powerful and meaningful endings.

You spent three years working on this script and delved into your personal history. Can you tell us how the idea originated and how it evolved?
The initial spark actually came from an earlier, unfinished film also called The Secret Agent. I was attempting screenwriting for the first time then, but it didn’t work out. I was working on Pictures of Ghosts at the same time, which was a much more relaxed, seven-year project. I explored my own collection of old videotapes, audio recordings, photos, and newspapers. Gradually, I rediscovered many personal memories, especially from my childhood in the 1970s. These memories became vivid as I connected them to the city and my first experiences with going to the movies. Naturally, that also brought up memories of my parents, people from my past, stories I remembered, and stories I found in newspapers, along with the complex political situation in Brazil during the 1970s, which was under military rule. All of this gave me the motivation to start a new script, and I felt that reusing the original title would be fitting.

Brazil had been shifting politically to the right, after a period of progressive governance earlier in the 21st century with leaders like Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva and the Workers’ Party. This move to the right didn’t feel very democratic; it seemed quite calculated, in my view. It stirred up a sense of longing for the time of the military dictatorship among some people. I’m sharing this now with the benefit of hindsight, as I didn’t fully recognize this dynamic when I first started writing. The initial inspiration for the script actually came from the emotional themes explored in Pictures of Ghosts. However, I gradually realized that the issues facing Brazil and its society, especially under Bolsonaro, echoed patterns from 50 years ago. There was a revival of support for military rule, which is frankly quite ridiculous. The administration actively promoted homophobia, misogyny, and internal racism. Coming from the Northeast, I’m acutely aware of the painful and interesting divide between it and the Southeast. The Northeast has always been rich in culture and independent in its traditions and language, while wealth has historically been concentrated in the Southeast. This disparity became even more pronounced under Bolsonaro, reflected in his and his government’s statements about the Northeast. He lost every state in the Northeast, which fueled his resentment towards the region. All of this-a very long and complicated process-is what ultimately shaped the script, and how it all came together.

What does *The Secret Agent* signify to you, both as a director and as someone from Brazil?
That’s a tough question, especially since it asks me to analyze my own work. I can say that I felt really good about creating characters that I genuinely connected with. Even the flawed characters resonated with me, as I see them as a result of the issues within our society. I realize some viewers might label certain characters as villains, and perhaps they are, but I believe they feel very real. While it’s a fictional story, I think many of these characters are built on genuine emotional experiences.

Was there one problematic character you enjoyed writing the most?
When it comes to writing – and I’ve mentioned this before, whether it’s characters or scenes – I never want to avoid revisiting anything. I never think, “This is tedious, I don’t want to work on this.” Everything needs to hold my interest. I find Bobbi as compelling as Sebastiana, because I see Bobbi as a fascinating character shaped by violence – a male model who embodies negativity, but that type does exist. I feel like I may have encountered people like them – perhaps in school, on the street, or at someone’s home. I’m genuinely interested in understanding all of them. Euclides, the police commissioner, is also incredibly fascinating to me. He’s a perfect example of someone on the right who struggles to truly understand the world around him. He’s clearly captivated by the German army during World War II. I met people like him growing up, and I’ve noticed them reappearing in my country over the last decade. They’ve managed to twist things around to fit their own worldview, and that’s how they want things to be.

Euclides and his police colleagues strongly believe that Hans, a German tailor portrayed by Udo Kier, was a Nazi who fought in World War II. However, the audience discovers he is actually Jewish, something the police can’t even consider. This really shows how people can impose their own beliefs on a situation, even when those beliefs don’t match reality.
Recife has a large and well-established Jewish community. I grew up with Jewish friends. Jewish people immigrated from Europe in the early 1900s, both before, during, and after the Second World War. Clarice Lispector, a fantastic writer, is also from Recife. She arrived from Ukraine as a child in the early 1920s. I actually live less than a mile from her family home. So, despite the presence of a Jewish community in the city, he couldn’t grasp that a German person could also be Jewish. Understanding this requires some historical knowledge, but it’s definitely possible.

I came across an interview where you mentioned you don’t consider your films “traditionally” political. However, I view them as deeply political. They address issues like racism, unchecked development, wealth inequality, and the struggles of rural areas. And, of course, The Secret Agent explores the consequences of military rule and an aggressive police presence. Could you clarify what you meant by “traditionally,” and explain how your films do or don’t fit that definition?
When I think about that, I’m reminded of the films I loved when I first became passionate about cinema. I remember seeing Salvador by Oliver Stone. Under Fire, a beautiful film by Roger Spottiswoode, starring Nick Nolte and Gene Hackman, with an incredible score by Jerry Goldsmith. It’s set in Nicaragua during the 1979 conflict. The films of Costa-Gavras: Z, Special Section, Missing, which won the Palme d’Or in 1982. Nixon by Oliver Stone, Talk Radio-that one feels closest to my own work because it deals with freedom of speech. The Battle of Algiers. Films that unfold within government settings, like The Candidate with Robert Redford. Those are what I consider traditionally political films. But I don’t think Aquarius would fall into that category. It *is* political because it features a woman standing up for herself and refusing to be intimidated, which provokes anger in those around her. However, it’s not political in the same way as Salvador. Bacurau is a political film, but it’s also a western, a classic tale of a community under threat. Isn’t that political? Absolutely. Just look at what’s happening in the world today. But I never intentionally set out to make “another political film.” I understand why people see my films as political, but I don’t see them as “traditionally” political in the same way.

I really enjoyed how The Secret Agent plays with time. We follow the main story in the 1970s, but then jump to the future where two women uncover Marcelo’s story by listening to old recordings of what he experienced as a political refugee. How did you consider time while making the film – as a tool to tell the story, or as a central idea?
I approach time in this film the same way I do with all my work, and how I view books, papers, letters, and cinema in general: every film is a record of the time it was made, even something lighthearted like a romantic comedy. This morning, I was at the Spanish cinematheque’s archives in Madrid, and it was a truly wonderful experience. The reality is, we’re all aging. I’m 56 now, and I’ve become very aware of time passing. You see it happening all around you, not just in historical events, but in everyday changes. My children are 11 now, and it feels like only yesterday they were babies. It’s an incredible journey. It almost feels like we’re all time travelers eventually. Growing up, my mother was a historian, and from a young age, she instilled in me the understanding that the present is shaped by the past. Everything that’s happened before influences the future. She often used oral histories, like in Pictures of Ghosts, incorporating people’s voices and ambient sounds. She found relevance in everything. I believe that’s what cinema is all about. The different timelines in the film – the simplest, most affordable, and most effective special effect in cinema is just a cut. Switching between different time periods with a cut is a really captivating technique in filmmaking.

The Secret Agent is coming out at a time when we’re seeing more authoritarianism, both in the US and globally. I’m interested in your thoughts on what audiences might get from the film right now.
I’m genuinely curious. We screened the film last night in San Sebastián for the Spanish Academy members, and a lot of the questions focused on how Spain hasn’t fully dealt with the period after Franco’s rule. It seems to be a significant, lasting pain point in Spanish society. And I’ve recently been in the US, and friends and people watching the film have commented on how strangely relevant it feels to the current situation there. I think every country will connect with the film in its own way. In Brazil, it opens on November 6th, but we’ve already started doing special showings. The film seems to really resonate with Brazilian culture, because it reflects the way things were in my country 50 years ago-which can be quite a shock-and also how things are today. It’s a really interesting phenomenon. But honestly, you’re asking me a question I think *you* are better positioned to answer, since you study culture, and I’m just the filmmaker.

“Just the person who made the movie?” That’s a massive understatement.
No, but what I sometimes find frustrating – and to be clear, this is a really good discussion, you’re asking excellent questions – is that the ideas presented in the film felt very natural and heartfelt, shaped by things like pacing, mood, and emotion. And sometimes I’m put in the awkward position of having to retroactively figure out *why* I made certain choices. The reality is, I’m still discovering things through this film. I’m still learning from how people respond to it. And honestly, that learning process should be something I can explore privately. When I’m asked to step back and analyze my own work, it’s often challenging and even upsetting, because it forces me to revisit very sensitive and personal areas.

I see you as someone who studies history. You’ve observed how people connect with the film in various countries – Spain, the U.S., Brazil, and others. I’m interested in your thoughts on why authoritarianism, as shown in the film, is gaining traction. Has working on the film and researching Brazil’s history given you any insights into the resurgence of this ideology?
It’s quite ironic: we now have access to information that can be easily manipulated, taken out of context, or simply fabricated. Rumors can spread quickly with modern technology like telephones. I also think there’s a sense of longing for the past. In Brazil, when the far-right gained power, it felt almost like a costume party, with people romanticizing the 1970s, admiring the military’s image and uniforms, and wanting to impose a rigid order – the way they believe things should be – without acknowledging the diversity of society. There are all kinds of people – men and women, different ethnicities, and accents. I truly believe these authoritarians are constantly battling reality. That’s the most disturbing aspect. They get angry when they encounter things that challenge their worldview, like a male neighbor living with another man, and they try to deny that reality. I always hoped that increased access to information would make life easier, but that hasn’t happened. Now, we’re seeing people question even things like vaccines. Brazil has a very strong public-health system, and historically, vaccines were accepted by almost everyone – 97 percent of the population. But during the pandemic, many people started refusing vaccinations, fueled by misinformation. Also, as we move further away from World War II – a time of immense suffering and loss – we seem to be repeating past mistakes, as if suffering from a collective amnesia. It feels like history is cycling back. It’s a very dangerous kind of amnesia. Last year, I arranged a screening of Walter Salles’s film I’m Still Here in Recife. It was a wonderful event, and as two young women were leaving, I overheard them saying, “I didn’t realize the dictatorship was so terrible.” The fact that not everyone remembers how bad the dictatorship was is a direct result of this amnesia.

So, what are your plans after this? You talked about possibly revisiting the script that started as ‘The Secret Agent,’ but I’m curious if you’ve been thinking about any other projects too.
I actually have a pretty strong idea that I’ve been developing for about six months now. I really want to fully enjoy this exciting experience I’m having with The Secret Agent, and then next year I plan to start writing again. The next story is actually hinted at within Pictures of Ghosts. It will be set in Recife in the 1930s. I’m going back to a period I didn’t personally experience, but I’m confident we can create something really engaging and explore time again, offering a fresh perspective on history. Starting a new project is always challenging because you start to overthink things and question everything. But yes, I’m happy to say I do have something brewing. It’s not always the case that I have an idea ready to go.

The 2023 documentary pulled from the filmmaker’s archive to analyze how Recife was once a cinema hub, and how the loss of its movie houses has reflected the city’s broader transformations over time.
Mendonça Filho’s 2016 film about a woman who refuses to sell her apartment to a developer so they can tear it down and build a skyscraper. They try to force her out via increasingly abusive and violent means.

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2025-09-30 16:57